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A Message to Non-Muslims from a Muslim

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by Peace4all, Mar 15, 2008.

  1. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #61
    Ok, thank you but please feel free to dispute and check my facts. I obviously have my own biases, and the human capacity to make mistakes or misinterpret info.

    I'm happy for good people to discuss with. It's really neat to have international friends of different sexes, races, religions to share perspectives.
     
    guerilla, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  2. harshakiran

    harshakiran Notable Member

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    #62
    Interesting thread


    Im not sure but i though UAE and Kwait are more advanced
     
    harshakiran, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  3. imad

    imad Peon

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    #63
    I think women in Egypt topic is related to the OP topic, because its a part of the misunderstanding around Islam, I read a lot on forums somebody, saying, Islam treat women bad, Muslims treat women bad..etc, while in Islam women have the right to vote, inherit, own their own business, the prophet pbuh himself, was working for Khadija, who later became his wife and he continued working for her after they married, and did not own her business by default because they got married,

    and more, you can do a search for "women rights in Islam" and see, I recommend anybody who wants to know more about any religion related topic not to take anybodys word on that for granted, but also to do their own research, a good start can be by getting a copy of Quran translated to your language, and reading it, since Quran is the main source of teaching for Muslims that has answers for the main issues,

    I do not like when somebody point to a problem in an Islamic world and Muslims take it sensitively and start to "defend" by mentioning the other communities problems, like what happened in this thread, somebody says what means women are not treated well in Egypt, somebody else reply by saying what means, women are not treated well in USA also,

    I also do not like when non-muslims accuse Islam for treating women bad, when Islam granted them rights at a time they had no rights at all before Islam, this includes their right to just live which been taken from them and many been buried alive before Islam. and when other religions prohibit women from even talk in their holy books, or from "owning" I have many quotes from different holy books, if anybody wants them, that encourage men not to give women their basic rights.

    there is a lot of hypocrite and lot of sensitivity, some Muslims may see in pointing a problem in an Islamic country by non-muslim; an attack or an insult to Islam, while this might be the purpose but I see we as Muslims should not take it like this and try instead to work on correcting such problems rather than pointing back to problems in the other communities.

    its well known I think that there are oppressed women in everywhere, but the percentage differs from a place to another, and the conditions that led to such problem are different in each place, so I also think that approaching this problems should be different in each place, what worked in USA may not work in Egypt for example, in the contrary it may lead to disasters if been implemented in Egypt..

    back to the main topic, i have the following link for anybody who wants to know more about women in Egypt, and the relation between some bad practices and religion, from that article I would like to quote one sentence that summarize the topic:


    "Non-Muslims fail to realize that, in reality, these practices are strongly rooted in tradition rather than religion."

    here is the link for the full article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_51/ai_n9483888
     
    imad, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  4. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

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    #64
    Switzerland is a beautiful place. I'm still happy in the US, and will probably stay here. I understand where you're coming from though. We are constantly in conflicts with other countries, and the government wants too much control of our life. Such as spying on us, national ID cards, etc. Things should swing back or ease up eventually as people push back. In the McCarthy era they used the cold war as an excuse, now they use the war on terror. As far as getting in conflicts with other countries, perhaps that will change with new leadership. Probably not in this election, but maybe the next...
     
    Rebecca, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  5. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #65
    I mostly use the research as an excuse to learn more about other countries. I probably know more about Estonia than I do about Korea, and only because I saw Estonia high on some list of "most libertarian countries"

    Positive goals can keep on being advanced day-by-day, year to year. Obviously, we're so far from perfect (whatever that is), it's not going to happen quickly, or maybe even in our lifetimes.

    Hopefully I can help leave things better than they were before I arrived.
     
    guerilla, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  6. grooveman

    grooveman Peon

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    #66
    Heres the problem I have with religion, any religion.
    People are killing each other over their "beliefs" and everyone thinks they possess a certain truth and wisdom that the other does not have.
    Stupid.
     
    grooveman, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  7. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

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    #67
    It never occurred to me that such a list even existed. I Googled it and found the 2006 State of World Liberty Index. I found out the 2007 index has not been published yet. For anyone else that wasn't aware of this list, these are the top 10 for 2006:
    1 Estonia 85.25
    2 Ireland 83.34
    3 Canada 82.34
    4 Switzerland 82.33
    5 Iceland 82.27
    6 Bahamas 82.12
    7 United Kingdom 81.96
    8 United States 81.96
    9 Cyprus 81.65
    10 New Zealand 81.24

    According to Wiki:
    That is very interesting, I never realized there are people that track this.

    I'm sure you already have.:)


    When I initially started posting in this thread my intentions were good. Peace 4 All seems to live by his username, and never engages in fighting. Then Gauharjk came in here to let his friend know that he may not get a warm welcome from this type of thread. Gauharjk is someone that I would consider a friend and I like him. It made me feel kind of bad, so I started posting to show some support. Then when the thread started to veer towards how women are treated in Islam, that was a strong trigger for me. It is a subject that I have a great deal of passion for and have a harder time containing myself.:) At this point, we have hopelessly taken this thread of course and I apoligize for that. But if we want to continue in this direction, there are some statements in the Quran that may make it difficult for women...
    The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

    . . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

    I heard the Prophet saying. "Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house." (Bukhari)

    The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:
    The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

    The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:
    And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

    Sura 2:282:
    The Prophet said, "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind." (Bukhari, emphasis added)

    The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:
    And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. (In that case) there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

    The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:
    And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

    The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:
    And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

    The Quran in Sura 33:50, a lengthy verse, grants Muhammad wide latitude in his marriages:
    O Prophet, We have made lawful to you those of your wives, whose dowers you have paid, and those women who come into your possession out of the slave-girls granted by Allah, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and of your maternal uncles and aunts, who have migrated with you, and the believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet may desire her. This privilege is for you only, not for the other believers . . . . (Maududi vol. 4, p. 111, emphasis added).

    The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:
    4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

    To be fair, if you look at any monotheistic religion, including Christianity, you can find qoutes that are discriminatory of women. The difference may be that in western society they do not have anything equivalent to shariah law. They don't make religious qoutes like this translate into modern law, and church and state are kept for the most part seperate in western societies. Islam and Christianity have a tendency of favouring men in every aspect of life.
     
    Rebecca, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  8. LinkSales

    LinkSales Active Member

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    #68
    Ever read the bible?
    1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual un-cleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

    4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is: my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

    6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?

    7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

    9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
     
    LinkSales, Mar 23, 2008 IP
  9. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

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    #69
    Very confusing if you are a Christian. This is old testament stuff, but in the new testament jesus said that he is not taking away the old law. If these are statements made by G-d, how could G-d be just or kind? Better to be agnostic...:)
     
    Rebecca, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  10. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #70
    It's always a good marketing idea to create lists. Just as I got interested, many people get drawn to lists.

    I remember a few years ago, good DIGG linkbait was to make a list, like

    Top 10 Actors
    Top 20 Movies

    etc.
     
    guerilla, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  11. ThraXed

    ThraXed Peon

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    #71
    Hi Rebecca, thank you for your post. The Quran is a message to the whole world and all times, so it would be silly of me to say well this is only for Muhammeds time, but the Quran clearly staes it is for the world and the people to live after.

    Sura 2:282:
    The Prophet said, "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind." (Bukhari, emphasis added)

    I'm in agreement with this. It may confuse you, but how many times in modern society have we seen women make false rape claims, or make false claims all together in court or for divorce. A recent one would be Heather Mills, who clearly divorced Paul Mcartney for his money.

    I'm sure Gauharjk can answer more for you. :)
     
    ThraXed, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  12. gauharjk

    gauharjk Notable Member

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    #72
    I am sorry, but I know little about all these issues. I know these issues exist, but I cannot explain "Why" they are there. People in the West have a different way of looking at things, a different perspective, a completely different culture.

    I believe only experts like Dr. Zakhir Naik can explain them, and the answers would still be unsatisfactory, coz the way of looking at things is very different.

    The Quran says - "Women are different, but equal', at a time when women were objects of entertainment. That brought a profound revolution in the Middle East, where earlier paganism had destroyed the status of women.

    Look at the bright side. Women had the right to inheritance 1400 years ago. At that time, the business, trading and stuff was a Man's business. Thats why men got more share in the property. A woman would be married into a separate family, and had the right to 1/3rd of the wealth, as guaranteed by the Holy Quran.

    Outside the basics, I know little about the depth of topics in the Holy Quran.
     
    gauharjk, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  13. ThraXed

    ThraXed Peon

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    #73
    I will answer more of your queries later Rebecca, but let me remind you that Islam and Muhammed were the first thnigs to bring ANY rights to Women (in the world), let alone equal rights. :)
     
    ThraXed, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  14. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

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    #74
    I don't know. I guess I stretch my mind over the course of human history and wonder why there is a question at all as to woman's genius, courage, worth, beginning with the most primordial of acts: All else aside, woman gives birth. I watched my wife give birth to our son, and endure agonies few men could stomach in the process. We men have our virtues; but we pontificate on and on, ignoring this most basic of human conditions.

    Quite honestly, I believe my gender has in many ways just largely blown it, and it might be time for our sad species to lend a better ear to what woman has to say - for the species, for the planet.
     
    northpointaiki, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  15. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

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    #75
    Don't bother. Essentially you are saying that women are stupid and have a tendency to lie. You believe that, because your religion encourages and condones that attitude. If that is what you truly believe, I don't want to hear anymore.
     
    Rebecca, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  16. debunked

    debunked Prominent Member

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    #76
    I find it funny that people still try to post things like this. Since when did God tell YOU these things? These are all OBVIOUSLY written for a certain people AT a certain time. It was commanded to a specific group of people.

    I suppose you use a VW bug repair manual to guide you in repairing your Mercedes. Or directions on how to put on a finger bandage while you are attempting heart surgery. Are you going to say that is how dumb you are? That is what you are doing when you take a command to a certain group of people from a specific time and try to apply it to everyone and today..... sad.....


     
    debunked, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  17. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #77
    You do realize you have basically eroded any real chance you will be able to use the Bible as a plank in an argument?

    Because what you are saying is

    1) The good book is subjective

    2) You can ignore the parts that were not addressed to you, even thought the book speaks the word of God through analogies and historical recounts.

    3) God isn't consistent with his message. An American would get different instructions than an Israelite, or a Philistine or an Egyptian.

    Basically, a whole can of worms...

    And likewise, the Muslims could probably use the same (dumb) defense of the Quran.
     
    guerilla, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  18. ThraXed

    ThraXed Peon

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    #78
    Nope, don't put words into my mouth. Your hypocrisy is quite astounding, raging on about womens rights in the middle east when it is just as bad if not worse in the west.

    Have men ever laid false rape claims against women?
    Have women ever laid false rape claims against men? (Yes, it happens VERY frequently, so it is fair that a womens witness counts as half a mans witness, if she is truthful).
     
    ThraXed, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  19. ThraXed

    ThraXed Peon

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    #79
    No, the Quran is much clearer and states if it is talking about a certain time or place. Comparing it to the bible is like comparing that crazy egyption singer to a band like the beatles. :eek:
     
    ThraXed, Mar 24, 2008 IP
  20. imad

    imad Peon

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    #80
    I hope your intentions will stay good, I did not see any bad intentions in your past posts, nor in this one that includes quotes from Quran which in your words "may make it difficult for women"

    and which I see made it easier for women at that time, and at current time, many Muslim women share my opinion, in the following, I will try to explain these quotes in their context, since they are some, and each requires lot of typing, I will divide them in multiple posts, starting with

    this quote is only a part of the whole verse ( sura ) that says:

    "[4:11] GOD decrees a will for the benefit of your children; the male gets twice the share of the female. If the inheritors are only women, more than two, they get two-thirds of what is bequeathed. If only one daughter is left, she gets one-half. The parents of the deceased get one-sixth of the inheritance each, if the deceased has left any children. If he left no children, and his parents are the only inheritors, the mother gets one-third. If he has siblings, then the mother gets one-sixth. All this, after fulfilling any will the deceased has left, and after paying off all debts. When it comes to your parents and your children, you do not know which of them is really the best to you and the most beneficial. This is GOD's law. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise."

    the part in bold, adds more info, it says after fulfilling any will the deceased has left, Quran also recommended that a persons hould write a will in verse 2:180 which says:

    "[2:180] It is decreed that when death approaches, you shall write a will for the benefit of the parents and relatives, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous."

    if there was no will left, or if there are things left after fulfilling the will, then the rest is divided, from which the share of the male shall be twice that of a female, since the female in Islam is not responsible for the family, a male is responsible for the family and all their needs, even if his wife works, all her money is hers.

    in the will, a person is free to give females same as males, or even twice as males, or more, for example, if a man has a poor daughter, and a rich son, the man in his will can give his daughter twice what he gives his son.

    its worth to mention, that women before Islam did not have the right to inherit, Quran gave them this right in the same chapter in sura 7 which says:

    "[4:7] The men get a share of what the parents and the relatives leave behind. The women too shall get a share of what the parents and relatives leave behind. Whether it is a small or a large inheritance, (the women must get) a definite share."
     
    imad, Mar 24, 2008 IP