United States Heading towards a Depression?

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by decoyjames, Dec 27, 2007.

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  1. korr

    korr Peon

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    #881
    Check this out

    A Deflationary Collapse Followed by Hyperinflation


    He's coming to the same conclusion, based on the more liquid M0 and M1. MZM and M2 are apparently based on fractional reserve loans lent out by commercial banks. M0 is the cash on hand backing those loans.

    This means the banks must be getting closer to fractional reserve limits, because the money that's being created is based on a shrinking reserve. F the fed this is a total mess buried in a lot of misleading technicalities.
     
    korr, Mar 14, 2008 IP
  2. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #882
    Jim Rogers is a very smart investor, he's been around for ages and knows his stuff.

    He also doesn't tolerate stupidity and is quick to call a spade a spade.

    This is totally counter-intuitive, given that most people don't think for themselves, but there is absolutely no reason why a country has to have a central bank (FED).

    A Central Bank is one of the planks of the Communist Manifesto. It is anti-free market, and fractional reserve banking creates moral hazard.

    So no matter what people may say, there is no need for a Central Bank. It's merely a tool to extort the people of their prosperity over time.
     
    guerilla, Mar 14, 2008 IP
  3. bogart

    bogart Notable Member

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    #883
    The big issue right now i thatthe FED has basically decided to bail out the banks out the cost of trillions of dollars at the taxpayers expense.

    The original Fed had a balance in that there was gold and silver money and notes. In the current situation there is nothing to stop the Fed from causing either double-digit inflation or the collapse of the dollar.
     
    bogart, Mar 14, 2008 IP
  4. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #884
    Yeah, but even the gold standard FED didn't work well. They still managed to cause the great depression, first by building up the bubble in the 20s, then destroying it violently in the 30s. As (Jefferson?) warned, the banks would steal our wealth through inflation, then deflation. The wealthy bought up a lot of property during the depression.

    Anyways, later, Von Mises predicted that Bretton Woods wouldn't work, and sure enough it did not. Guns and Butter forced Nixon to close the gold window.

    As long as you have a lender of last resort, the government will collaborate with the FED to enable deficit spending, and debasement of the currency.

    That is why the FED and the 16th Amendment came in together. Income Tax is the collateral for the lender of last resort.

    So why do we really have a central bank and an income tax? Because you can't conduct war or imperialism (and the war debt and profiteering that goes along with it) in a democracy if it has to be paid for by direct tax.

    Sound conspiratorial? It's the truth.
     
    guerilla, Mar 14, 2008 IP
  5. bogart

    bogart Notable Member

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    #885
    I wonder how much the Bear Stern bailout is going to cost? The dollar fell to 99.15 Yen today. Oil is $110 a barrel. A few more bailouts and some more rate cuts and the Yen with test 90.

    How are the Chinese not revauling? Add that to the equation when the Chinese revalue 20%
     
    bogart, Mar 14, 2008 IP
  6. wisdomtool

    wisdomtool Moderator Staff

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    #886
    I think it is a catch 22, if the Fed don't bail out Bear there will be a chain reaction which may see the immediate result of a collapsed economy, they are trying to buy time.


     
    wisdomtool, Mar 14, 2008 IP
  7. bogart

    bogart Notable Member

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    #887
    The industry needs to be regulated like in the past or let them sink or swim. The banks can't have their cake and eat it too. This is costing a bijillion dollars.
     
    bogart, Mar 14, 2008 IP
  8. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #888
    It's costing guys like you and me. It costs the people who work for a living.
     
    guerilla, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  9. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #889
    Decent roundup for a Saturday morning...

    What the Price of Gold Is Telling Us
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul445.html

    Excerpt

    ...


    Inflation Is a Policy that Cannot Last
    http://www.mises.org/story/2901

    Great graphs!

    Excerpt
     
    guerilla, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  10. wisdomtool

    wisdomtool Moderator Staff

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    #890
    Lovely article that is well worth to bookmark and enjoy slowly on a Sunday morning :)

    With regards to the bailing out of Bear Steins I think they are stuck too deep inside the mud to ignore it. Just hoping that for the next 28 days they do something sensible and liquidate the company rather do some heroic rescue exercises.


     
    wisdomtool, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  11. wkhaiaun

    wkhaiaun Peon

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    #891
    The FED is really too generous. I wonder if after all these is over, will these banks and financial institutions ever learn how to manage their investment properly. After all, if it happens again, the FED will still bailout right?
     
    wkhaiaun, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  12. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #892
    More importantly, will they pay us back?
     
    Mia, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  13. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #893
    Sure! They'll just print up some more money, and pay you back with interest! ;)

    There is a great part in that "what the price of gold is telling us" article I linked.

     
    guerilla, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  14. wisdomtool

    wisdomtool Moderator Staff

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    #894
    Fed are generous to their own kind, those big banks and financial institutions. I really doubt they will pay the normal tax payer back.

    Anyway to look on the bright side, even had they paid, by then the value of the USD may be lower than the AUD. To prevent hurting the average tax payers too much, they may decide not to pay back, just in case you will be sad after seeing your shrink dollar. :)

     
    wisdomtool, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  15. wisdomtool

    wisdomtool Moderator Staff

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    #895
    I beg to differ on this. They are legally printing out those worthless papers, not counterfeiting. They do have a license to print.


     
    wisdomtool, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  16. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #896
    It is counterfeit. FRNs are completely worthless and quite possibly illegal.
     
    guerilla, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  17. wisdomtool

    wisdomtool Moderator Staff

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    #897
    Value is certainly dropping but for the illegal portion wonder if guerilla can enlighten me on this?

     
    wisdomtool, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  18. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #898
    I'll help you enlighten yourself.

    What is a US dollar?

    (A better starting place might be, "what is money?" but I assume you have some background on that).
     
    guerilla, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  19. wisdomtool

    wisdomtool Moderator Staff

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    #899
    Money is just a token to facilitate the exchange of goods or trade. A USD is a legal tender to serve the same purpose.

     
    wisdomtool, Mar 15, 2008 IP
  20. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #900
    Well a US dollar is defined as a fixed amount of silver. A federal Reserve note is a bank credit note, to be redeemed in lawful tender.

    The Constitution defines lawful tender as gold and silver.

    But we can't exchange our FRNs for gold or silver, we can only exchange them for new FRNs.

    So because they are unbacked, and printed without any restriction, and cannot honor their legal promise of redemption, they are in fact counterfeit.

    The only reason the system continues and perpetuates is that

    (1) most people are economically stupid
    (2) the government is doing the counterfeiting, and they aren't about to sue themselves to prove it.

    Money is a token, but it represents something. If I print money in my home, that is counterfeit. It is printed, but doesn't have any value behind it. It wasn't acquired legally, it wasn't acquired productively. The paper is worthless, except what it cost me to print the note.

    The government prints money continuously. This is counterfeit. We can all agree that it dilutes the value of the money already in circulation, causing price increases and inflation. The effect is absolutely the same.

    The only difference is who is doing it.
     
    guerilla, Mar 15, 2008 IP
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