NOT SAFE FOR WORK http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/multimedia/2008/02/gallery_abu_ghraib NOT SAFE FOR WORK Pretty sick stuff. And people still think they hate us because our women drive cars, and we eat ham sandwiches. We hate them for terror and torture, and they hate us for terror and torture. If someone did this to one of my family members, I might be willing to go to extremes to get even.
Yeah, nobody hated the United States until the Iraq war. ___ That being said, the pictures are horrible and show the acts of sick men and women. I fully hope that anyone participating/authorizing/sanctioning this type of activity is held to account.
Oh, so now you are ok to agree with me. Hopefully the American people won't reject our positions. Btw, how do you feel about this treatment, as a method of winning hearts and minds? Do you feel this will be successful, and help raise America's profile in the Arab world?
I have often agreed with you, it is just that more often we disagree. Just because I disagree with you about some issues (like foreign aid) does not mean I have a knee-jerk response to disagree with everything you say. I do 100% disagree that this is the main reason many terrorist groups hate me and my country. They hated us long before we set foot in Iraq. Of course this behavior is atrocious and even if one supported the war, these acts do nothing to advance the goals of the war. As an American citizen I can only repudiate these acts and apologize for them and try to vote out the people who caused them. These type of acts turn people against us regardless of the merit of the mission. I do think that Bush's policies in this regard have been horrible for the American people and our standing in the world and I fear we can not easily undo the damage he caused.
This is a great post and as far as I can recall is the first time I have ever agreed with anything you have posted. Well done.
The real question should be who do you think has it worse, the terrorist in Iraq or these guys trying to get into a fraternities http://s133702574.onlinehome.us/pictures/blog/hazing.jpg
In support of the US, our military told on our military... US media published all the pictures and wrote extensively about it. The US public was outraged and many of those responsible have been punished. That does not excuse what we have done. But this incident does not define what our military is about either.
You went to a foreign country who did not need you or even want you and yet you say this does not "define" your military? Just because you do well in one country an bad in the other does not mean anything. These pictures are disgusting and absolutely give all soldiers worldwide a very bad name. But then again, are not soldiers mean to kill? Which makes them bad from the beginning if you ask me.
Lets be realistic about this; Far worse things happen to our troops, far worse things have happened to our citizens (who didn't partake in the war, but were helping Iraqis), i don't feel the desire to start killing muslims at random though or seeking out UK iraqis to torture & kill. Whilst any abuse by our forces is disgusting & against the normal persons view of being acceptable, we do not approve of the actions by a few & they will be punished, these abuses in no way absolve terrorists of their actions & i don't believe nor is it true that all terrorists have been harmed directly in anyway, their war is an idealogical one, a religious one & a fanatical one at that. Shame on you for justifying their actions.
I'll agree with that. In my opinion, this is much less about some members of the military behaving poorly, as it is about commands and orders that allowed this to happen. And it's ideologically driven by the highest levels, at the DoD and State Department. Shame on you for lacking the capacity to understand what I wrote. As far as I know, 19 terrorists died on 9/11. More Al Queda may have died, but these people in the prisons are not all terrorists. The majority of Iraqis in jail are not terrorists, and the majority of Iraqis killed since the war started are not terrorists. But as terror is perpetrated by one side against the other, each side starts to slip with their morality and judgment. There is a sliding scale of what is acceptable when dealing with a heinous enemy. Do you think it is a coincidence that America now has detention centers for torture? That they have not been able to convict any terrorists based on evidence obtained, and yet they are held for years on end, without access to a lawyer, without basic human rights? What about the middle aged man, who gets on a flight, is kidnapped at the airport, sent to Syria where he is tortured for a few years, then dumped on the street somewhere, naked, bruised and mentally damaged. That's extraordinary rendition. That's what the west does. This is the mutual degeneration I am talking about. And it starts with the President, and people like Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. It's not a few rogue soldiers acting badly. It's what happens to souls when the only answers are hate, murder and revenge. You become like your enemy. I can't control what AQ does, but I can control what my government does in my name. The actions it takes, that provoke this generational conflict, and put my family at risk from retaliation or escalation.
As unacceptable and mind provoking all this is What do people expect, of course they do not accept these actions, but 100% regretably this is the level that the British and the USA have stooped to in this tragic scenario Expecting more of the same to be dished up soon, as more pictures are released 100% Change of policy and law needed urgently...........but I expect unlikely to be adopted
Nothing can justify these actions, I think now america has gone down to the same level as the terrorists...
And that is part of the problem. We're supposed to fight them, to resist their tactics, to fight for some sort of higher moral position. But if we're going to use the same tactics, and in some cases, worse, then what are we fighting for? It might be survival, but it's certainly not "right".
You're right, this could not happen without an environment that accepts and encourages this behavior. It is all about commands and orders and believing that "authority" is always right. This is a completely different situation, but as I write this I am thinking about an example of this. There was a prank caller that would call fast food places in small towns. He would tell the male manager that he was a local police officer and ask him to cooperate with him. This prank caller was a mastermind of psychology and would convince the manager he needed to strip search the female employee with him on the phone. The majority of them followed orders because they believed the guy on the phone was from the authorities. Many cases it went beyond strip searches to humiliating the victim and even rape. Once you are trained to follow authority and orders without question, you will do almost anything. That is why we all need to have some center or balance that we won't deviate from, no matter who says that it is right.
My question is did anyone actual die from the abuse at Abu Ghraib? Are there any creditable sources or cites to the answer? I still disagree with what they did, but I think this was more of lack of disicpline and control over the soliders guarding the prison. Also, these aren't new pictures. They are just pictures at different angles of ones already shown to the public. Whats up with the mouse trap?
Interesting. Rehasing an old story from four years ago for nothing more than an opportunity to portray America and our military in a negative fashion. This is a canard. It illustrates that the point is to portray America in a bad light, by asking a false, yet loaded question. It presumes that those who were arrested and behind bars did what they did to win hearts and minds, thereby assigning blame to all the military, since that is one of their objectives. I believe people that ceaselessly attack America almost daily, for the pure purpose of undermining America and portraying it as the evil of the world, do far more to ensure America's profile will never be raised in the Arab world. They would never post an article about how "our" military built new schools, brought soccer balls and equipment to kids, helped rescue Iraqis from al qaida torture houses, helped rescue those kidnapped for ransom, etc. If they were really concerned about "our" profile in the Arab world, you would post things like this. But they don't. Their agenda is to only post the most controversial, negative stories possible and in the absence of anything new, rehash old ones to make sure that "profile" is never achieved. Your opinion is not supported by the facts. Your opinion never reflects support for "our" military our country. It most often reflects support and sympathy for those fighting "our" soldiers; that threaten "our" country. Shame on you for, yet again, being a political opportunist to attempt to portray "our" country negatively by using an event that took place four years ago and those guilty are behind bars. Shame on you for doing so, when others that are not even citizens of "our" country stood up to defend "our" country this thread. A lack of concern and sympathy for one's soldiers and country, yet a remarkable admission of concern and sympathy for terrorists by suggesting you know who is and is not a terrorist. The majority of Iraqis are killed by terrorists, and their credit is often given to "our" soldiers. Perpetually holding the military of "our" country responsible for the actions of a few, from years ago, when they are serving time behind bars where they belong. A hint of moral equivalence, when there simply is none. Canards. Loaded questions that are presumed true. Again, for the sole purpose of portraying "our" country negatively. Strawmen to portray "our" country negatively. Oddly, never a bad word for a terrorist. I call it aid and comfort. This is false. It's an opinion. Not surprising though. Some actually become the enemy by turning their back on their own country and demonstrating sympathy for those "we" are fighting. No, you cannot control what your government does. One's family is not at risk for simply stating falsehoods and siding with enemies of our country. People like that (who reside in "our" country) have something to hide behind for protection. It's called the "Constitution." The same people you are laying guilt upon for the actions of a few, are making sure you have the right to hide behind the "Constitution" they are serving and protecting, so that you can sit around on a forum every day and ceaselessly attack your country and those who serve it, while offering nothing but the most pleasant things to say about "our" (perhaps not your) enemies. That's not a problem. "We" (not you) do fight them, resist their tactics and do fight for a higher moral position, despite those who use every political opportunity to suggest otherwise. "Our" military is better and I will stand up for those honorably serving "our" country, who cannot be here when someone who has never done anything more for their country than bitch, whine, moan and complain try to tear them down behind their backs, while they are off fighting terrorists and trying to make a difference. "We" (not you) ARE better, do not use children for suicide bombs, nor mentally challenged women for suicide bombs, nor do "we" (not you) use any of those methods. "We" are the moral authority. To suggest that "our" (not your) military is on the same level as those you often absolve and lend sympathy to, truly demonstrates the mindset I've often pointed out. You really should thank those that are serving. I can't think of anyone who needs to hide behind the Constitution they are fighting for and protecting, than you.
GTech, sad to see you are back, and up to the same antics. So I won't be wasting a lot of time rebutting your canned responses, you have posted numerous times on this forum, and frankly no one buys into anymore. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. What can I say? Only a fascist or authoritarian would argue against the governmental structure or natural law derived human rights of the Constitution. Doesn't matter to me which hood you wear, they both add up to the same thing. Blind patriotism, and personalized divisive rhetoric. The forum has moved past you friend. Maybe you should get a new shtick.