Gods that Christians Dont Believe in.....AND Gods that Atheists Dont Believe in

Exactly! You can never win. All you have is your silly logic to go up against our massive mental impairment.

You can read this to understand why I believe God is above the laws of the universe He created:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

Also, I personally don't believe He is actively running the universe in the way that you are implying. I believe He coded it like a computer program and set all the cause and effect in motion, but still was able to see exactly how every single little detail would play out and even see what times the rules of the universe would be broken (miracles).

See, I'm more insane then you probably think. Or is it more sane--I can never bother to remember.

That place is in Heaven.

I don't think you quite have it right. I'm talking about the words behind it that don't translate to english without a little bit of confusion because in the english language a word can be spelled the same and mean two different things in different contexts. It really is complex to study the finer points of theology and when you throw something up like you just found some amazing proof that no Christian has studied before, it only shows that you haven't really looked into it. People have spent their entire lives mapping out the complex web and cross references of the Bible so that it's easier for us to see when we're confused. To you it sounds like we are finding tricky ways to avoid logic, but to us it is out of a desire to truly understand as much as we can, even though we can't all understand everything in our lifetimes.

E.W. Bullinger created an amazing Bible that has more cross references and appendixes built in than any other. It really is amazing how many things in Bible rely on previous or future things in the Bible to explain themselves. I've spent days trying to unravel complex verses or chapters just because it's so exciting as you get closer to understanding--like a mystery novel. Just have to be careful to keep the entire context in mind.

I don't really know the answer to this, but I'm sure that at least a hundred different theologians have written long, exhaustive books on the subject.

Are you wanting an explination, or will it just sound like denial to you?

Had to do a double take on this, but then I remembered. I just really hope God will bring you to your senses. You're too smart not to see how contradictory that is to the theme of the Bible as a whole. What did Jesus even die for?

Would you be willing to read some in-depth writing from a Protestant Theologian on why JW contradicts the Gospels if I read something from The Watchtower on why Protestanism contradicts your core?

I'm not afraid of it leading me astray, so I'll make that compromise if you promise to read what I give you. I believe that you'd keep your word.

 

Trust me on this. My senses are working just right. That's a great question about Jesus. Many are misled about the true reason why he had to die. His death was a sacrifice, yes? If it was a sacrifice, then it was an atonement. Similar to a ransom. How does a ransom work? A ransom is paid for the full value of something you want back. So, with this in mind. It would have to be something huge for Jesus to sacrifice his human life, yes?

There are two things that Jesus achieved through the ransom sacrifice of his human life.

1) The magnification of God's name. Giving glory to God was first and foremost in Jesus' teachings. Everything he did as a human, he thanked, praised, gave honour to and asked for help to his father, Almighty God. His integrity and faith in God was put to the test in the most extreme fashion. Not once did he budge on that, no matter how much pain and suffering he felt.

2) The ransom sacrifice paved the way for forgiveness of sins. Stemming back to the garden of Eden. His death on the torture stake fulfilled one part of the very first prophecy in Genesis 3:15 "You will bruise him in the heel". Who was talking to who in this verse? God was talking to Satan after Satan had deceived Eve and tricked her into believing that God was witholding truths from her and Adam. What did Satan say? Genesis 3:4-5 says "At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad."

This was Satan's challenge to God. Challenging God's right to rule over mankind. He was telling Eve that man does not need God's guidance and if we take Satan's advice then we will "know good and bad" and "to be like God". Of course, Eve would have thought about this and decided she wanted what God was holding back on. Hence, what happened after we know about and God punished Adam and Eve and they lost their privilege of everlasting life on earth according to Genesis 1:26-28 and Genesis 2:15-17.

With the above information we can derive from this that Jesus' blood that poured out at his death, replaced the sinful blood that Adam had lost. It was a perfect balance, a ransom. It is very reasonable when you look at other scriptures considering the blood atonement for animal sacrifices to God all throughout the Old Testament and the "eye for an eye" and "tooth for tooth" teaching.

God wants us to worship him in the complete sense. What did Jesus say in Matthew 12:29-30? Why would Jesus' sacrifice mean anything different? It's worth thinking about, yes?

I will decline thanks. I have done a LOT of wider reading from other translations and other publications on this and other related matters. I feel very comfortable in the truth and am fully satisfied that I am in the position where I need to be. However, you are most welcome to visit watchtower.org (the official web site for Jehovah's Witnesses) and read any publication made available to the public. There's nothing secretive about what our organization publishes and any of us can talk freely about the content in each publication.

Again. Thanks for the offer but I will decline. I can't make deals on God's behalf. I don't have the right to do that. I can only go by what is written and by the principles taught by what is written. To me, it all boils down to the Bible. To me, the Bible is the measuring stick for all matters. I test it against everything I hear, read or see.

Regards,

Col

 

Ok, no worries, I was starting to regret making the challenge anyway--I'm reading a novel right now.

 

LOL. No problems matey Enjoy your novel. What I posted will be there when you get back

I have enjoyed this peaceful discussion with you. It's a great thing to talk without the heat and angst. If only others could talk this way like you and I are doing.

Have a cuppa on me whilst you are reading your novel

Col

 

@ iul

There is no "god" in Buddhist doctrine; it is an agnostic philosophy and has no place in the discussion of atheism.

I was a true atheist for a long time and I still fully reject each and every organized religion that has and does exist. I see the holes in the history and philosophy of Christianity and the other major monotheistic cults as well as any atheist, but I've come to embrace the agnostic philosophy as I've grown wiser and more insightful; I simply leave open in my mind the potentiality of a "god". To my mind that would mean something more along the lines of the whole of consciousness or something equally abstract. My point is just that we have to admit that something exists outside of the universe, outside of time. I think it is just as important to admit that, if that is so, we cannot possibly have any idea what it may be. To subscribe to any organized religion is to simply give up trying, to my mind.

 

Organizations are only there to bring together likeminded people. The problem is that if one member of that organization does something wrong, the wolves are waiting and ready to pounce and use it as a way to bash every member of the organization and use it as an easy way to dismiss the belief system that is individual to each member of the organization.

It's the same in Politics as it is in Religion.

I wish I could find a way to share the message of Christ's sacrifice without having to even use a label, but if I just went around being a good person it wouldn't be sharing anything more then earthly things.

You may believe that atheism is the answer to all our problems and want to share that with everyone out of a true desire to make things better.

It's never going to end--some people will always want to share what they believe is the most precious gift they can give.

The key is just to not let it get to the point where we can't still function together peacefully at the same time that we are spamming the crap outta each other. lmao

Agreed?

And don't give me any lines about atheists not spamming their philosophy.

Edit: and I wish people would tell me who they are when they call me names via rep so I can know who to laugh at. I won't tell on you lol.

 

If God created the universe and therefore life itself, who created God? The burden of proof is on YOU, pingpong123, to answer that one, and please don't quote the bible to prove the bible, or use the tired dodge that God has always existed.

Heaven and hell are dimensions? Which ones? The fifth and sixth?

Which microbioligits has come into corner of the ID fallacy?

The origin of life, or ambiogenesis was apparently chemical in origin and began billions years ago, and then evolved into the forms of life as we know them today. For a technical explanation please click here if you dare.

Another brilliant discussion on the origin of the universe and life can be found in The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins on pages 137--151 and following.

Finally, please read The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene. This is a fascinating work that any open minded person can comprehend. Among the topics discussed are the String Theory which encompasses about 11 dimensions. So maybe heaven and hell are #12 and #13?

All the above sources have one thing in common, they resort to logic and objective thinking, which is more than I can say about gullible believers in religion.

 

I hope you realise the word "gullible" can not be found in any online dictionary?

 

1. I admit there's a chance an entity that's beyond our understanding may have put all of the Universe into place...it all seems to perfectly balanced to be created accidentally.

2. I admit that there's a chance the Universe was created accidentally and the balanced was reached through numerous iterations. Evolutionary erosion if you wish => Big cat eats small bird. In time, big cat's jaws and teeth evolve and grow, so as to allow big cat to eat small bird easier. In another iteration, big cat wipes out all small bird specimens and causes the species to go extinct. In another iteration big cat dies because it lacks a food source and so forth and so forth, until we get that balance.

3. I choose to believe the science way (number 2) because of all the negative PR that the bible brings upon itself. The Bible is so manipulative that I automatically reject the manipulation and refuse to be played like a fool when someone says "believe without researching" (i'm sorry if that's not the exact English translation).

4. I certainly hope all is not gone when I die. I was inches away from death last New Years when I barely made it out of a car crash with a busted spine and that really put things in perspective for me. I keep telling myself there's plenty of time to think about whether I want to be an atheist or a christian, but it seems time is never on our side

 

All I can say in response to these 4 points is:

At least you are pleasant enough to point out reasons for your thoughts without offending anyone. Thanks for that. You could teach others some common decency. That's a leaf well deserved in your book.

The other thing is there is no harm in self education or getting educated in regards to both sides of the coin (in this regard). What we do with the information from both sides of the coin is completely up to each individual and should never be any pressure to go one way or the other.

I am taught from various means that we make our own bed. Therefore, no matter how our bed is to others, we are the ones sleeping in it.

I am very comfortable in my bed and always get a good nights sleep. I can only hope we all do, no matter how it is made

Good day.

Col

 

Col, I'm an atheist at heart, but I was a Christian until a year ago. I was surfing the Internet one night and I don't know how, but I got to a site that logically demolished every argument that God exists. It turned my whole belief system upside down and trust me, for a couple of weeks I was like a zombie.

I had no will to eat, work, see my friends or family because it all seemed so pointless. "I'm going to die anyway and there's nothing beyond" was the only thought running through my head at that point. I wonder if organized religion is just that, a tool created to keep people's spirits up and keep them productive and social and moral throughout their lives? An organ that, much like the heart keeps blood pumping or the lungs keep air circulating, is in charge of keeping will alive.

You said in some posts that you KNOW there is an afterlife. What do you base this affirmation on? I don't want to make this question sound like a dare or an insult, I'm genuinly curious about what makes you so sure there's an afterlife, since I'm currently searching for the same thing.

P.S. I don't claim to have good knowledge on religions and I don't really have time to dedicate into studying them. I base my beliefs on bits and pieces that I pick up everyday from my own experiences, media, etc.

Edit: I'm not comfortable in my own bed as an atheist. It's definitely not comfortable living with the knowledge that there's no end level and all you get is a Game Over screen. I doubt any atheist will ever be as comfortable as a christian from that point of view, but it's a suffering that our belief (or should I say non-belief) system obliges us to go through.

 

Stop worrying about the afterlife and pay more attention to your life.

We all can worry about our afterlife when the time comes for it, on our deathbeds.

 

Yes, the only problem is that not all people get a deathbed to ponder at that question. Like I said, after being in a car crash that had me inches away from death, I tend to see things differently:

Here's my "deathbed":

 

OK. I am not going to give you a sermon or anything like that. But what I can tell you is why I feel there is an afterlife. To me, it is a two-fold thing:

1) I study the Bible every day and every aspect of it. The teachings from it show me these things:

a) There is an answer for where mankind came from
b) There is a history of mankind and what happens when mankind does not follow along with God's guidance and principles.
c) There is a solution to mankind's problems
d) There is an application to find out what we need to do to be part of that solution and benefit from it now and the future.
e) There are prophecies which show what "the last days" will be like and also how "God's" people will be identified easily enough that do his will.

2) I take in all the above information along with a lot of external information from various means via eyes, ears and feelings. I see that history co-relates with the history in the Bible. I see what happens to man when he does not follow God's guidance and principles. I identify easily enough God's people by their words and deeds and I can certainly identify that we as a human race are living in the last days before the only solution to mankind's problems comes into play.

So, the 2 main points above are fairly vague to most. However, careful study habits will reveal these things to those who really want answers. Jesus said something so important that reflects on this very subject in Mark 4:10-13. It's worth a read and if you are up to reading it you can find it easily enough here.

 

Col provides helpful guidance as usual.

Tudi, there is no need to doubt or disbelieve, look at it positively and you'll see that god is with you, he has bailed you out alive from a car crash which many don't survive.
Renew your faith and see your life in a new light, touched by the divine.

But after such troubling experience it's better to say "thank you god" and live life with renewed passion and enthusiasm.

There are times for atheism and times for faith, your's is a case for faith.

 

Did you have a before-life? no. So what makes you think you will have an after one? Nothing. Only the hope that when you die you carry on existing.

You are deluding yourself for nothing more than false hope.

 

There is a before-life, if one believes in reincarnation.

 

believing something doesnt make it true.

 

I'll preach to you, cause that's what you're asking for, right? But it's going to end up being a simple answer with a complex, faulty explination lol.

I can feel you on this one--I've cheated death a couple times myself, and I also know what it's like to suddenly feel like everything you've been taught is a lie. It's very hard for me to accept anyone's teaching because I've seen the hypocracy in everyone and seen the logical holes that I don't even like to admit openly. When it comes to the afterlife, all it can possibly come down to is faith, 'cause we haven't been there.

You may be feeling pressure to search through all the different religions and find out which is correct, but people have spent long lives doing that and not come to any conclusions, and even Einstein went through being raised in religion, later rejecting it, then it's rumored that he realized he believed in the Christian God on his death bed.

Here's the beauty of Christianity though: it only takes a split second to realize whether or not you believe that Jesus really was God in the flesh and did what he claimed to do... everything else in the Bible is there to show you things after you believe, even though that message doesn't get out very well because Churches are there more to strengthen people's faith who are already Christian and they tend to focus on how to be happier and do more good works which doesn't really matter in the end, and each of us have our own specific part to play in this tragec love story.

We may not all have long to live, but we all have this one moment, and that's all we need.

I'm not going to tell you that becoming a Christian is going to make your life easier. Sometimes it's the exact opposite.

I'm not even going to tell you why I have faith that Christ's sacrifice was really what He claimed. If I tried to explain, it would sound like nonsense to a uniquely different person. And honestly, I have a feeling that you already believe and that it's just the logical part of your brain fighting with the part that is able to believe in spiritual things.

I do hope you come to some peace of mind, and to be honest, I hope even more that you go back to the Christian God who raised you but without all the extras that humans tack onto it (not throwing out the baby with the bathwater sort of thing), but I really have no power over that and all I can do is go around planting seeds and hoping some day they will grow into what I feel when I remember how strongly I believe in what I do.

Ok, I like to ramble on, but I can sum it up as: all you have to do is stop fighting what you already believe in your "heart" is possible. But only God can break through that barrier. Grace only comes to those who want it though (faith).

Haha, see what happens when I try to explain something so simple?... It really is a matter of having to lose your sanity in order to gain it.

 

Like I said, I respect anyone's opinions and faith, despite being an atheist. Thanks for taking your time to give me that advice, I appreciate it. But I think feelings and faith come from the brain, not the heart. Right now the brain (the logical part of my ego) is telling me that I'm an atheist.

Even if I said to myself one day "I'm going to be a christian from now on", I wouldn't believe it, so I would just be lying to myself. I'm glad that there are christians that truly believe, but unfortunately I think there are many more christians that are lying to themselves, or believe half-heartidly.

I think the main problem with the atheistic philosophy is that it's very blunt and more aggressive, which can be seen in Stox's posts at times. I do understand this aggressivness (just like I understand the aggresivness that churches sometimes fight for new members) but I think we can coexist, without poking our eyes out. As long as we keep things balanced and don't try to trample all over someone else's belief systems, we'll be fine.

This is one statement that I really can't agree with. I find it a lot harder NOT to believe in something than to do so.