client did not pay for renewal and now wants auth code

I have a web hosting company and hosted a clients web site for a few years and managed his domain name, all was well until Late 2006 when he threw a fit after I told him I wont do any free web design for him.

He then told me that he wanted to host somewhere else and demanded his money back for the hosting he had paid.

I then did the following the next day:

1) refunded him for a years hosting even though he was due 10 months. I had my lawyer deliver the bankers draft personally and had the client sign it.

2) sent him a copy of his site

3) sent him the login details for the domain so he could manage his domain name and transfer it out etc. (i have a copy of my email to him and have his response back saying he has received it)

He then proceeeded to go to another hosting company.

I did not hear anything from him until last week where he is now "demanding" the domain name auth codes and that i transfer the domain immediately to him and warned me that "if you play games I can play games".

I told him his comments were duly noted and called my lawyer two minutes later.

The situation with the domain name is that he had paid for the domain registration until Sept 2007 and only has invoices/proof of payment until then.

When the domain name came up for renewal in Sept 2007, my registrar automatically renewed it for me, as they do.

Can I assume then that because the old client did not pay the reg fees to me from Sept 2007 until now, then he no longer has any rights to the domain name and I can do what I want with it?

I mean, he had access to the domain control until last week for goodness sake, why did he not transfer it out? Why did his new host not take care of that?

The old client does not have any trademarks on the domain name, in fact his company is not even the same as the domain name.

I have to point out that this old client was a "real arse" with me back in 2006 and I saw an opportunity this week for some payback.

I have basically turned around and added 10 years registration onto the domain name and told the old client that if he wants the domain name he has to pay €1,000 for it becasue....

1) it does not belong to him anymore and he has no proof of payment

2) the domain name now is registered through to 2017 so I am not handing auth codes for nothing

Although my action could not be considered entirely ethical, what legal recourse does this old client really have in connection with this .com domain name now?

Today.....I received a notification from Network solutions informing me that an attempt was made to transfer the domain name over to enom but had been rejected becasue the Admin contact (me) did not respond.

In light of that, I have now listed the domain on afternic for $2000.

 

Good for you, i know the situation all too well, you work you arse off for your clients and get nothing but grief from them. Ethical or not, sell the domain for as much as you can get for it

 

I don't think the client has any legal power over the domain and so you can sell it

 

You sound 100% in the wrong, both legally and ethically.

I do not know laws where you live, but you knowingly took a domain he was actively using and are trying to extort money from him. And your whole reason for going out of your way to screw him is to settle some old injustice. What are you 15 years old or a professional web host?

 

If you park your car in a parking space with a parking meter and fail to return within the alotted time you have paid for, what do you think happens? The car gets towed and you are asked to pay a fine. You dont have the right to stay in that spot "just becasue you are using it". I think the towing company will laugh at you.

If you rent a post office box from the post office and pay for 1 year, dont return and pay the renewal fees for the rental of the box, you cannot expect to return 18 months later and expect to have right to use the box again, "just becasue you were using it before". I think you will be thrown out of the post office.

Maybe you did not read my post properly?

The guy got all upset becasue I would not make any more free changes to his web site. The guy did not pay the renewal fee on the domain name when it was due and is demanding the domain name now even after I gave him all the login details to manage it and transfer it himself.

In addition he is being an jack ass about it, sending me sms messages like "I see you dont want to take my calls, we are coming around to your house ok?" plus more.

First off, I am a business. If I want to mark up the renewal fee, thats my right to do so. The same way big companies like Gap and Nike take clothing made in sweatshops in China and flog them in the West for 1,000% profit.

Secondly, taking crap like "we are coming to your house", wtf is that?, do I deserve comments like that? No mate. The guy actually deserves a serious beating, but I am a little more refrained than that, I would rather make him suffer where it hurts most, his wallet and web site.

I treated this guy pretty fair when he was a client and just because the big baby did not get his way, he has decided to throw his toys out of the pram and I will not budge this time.

Oh, and you should know, my lawyer emailed me two hours ago and said the guy does not have a leg to stand on....so happy days!!

 

1. I am not justifying any of his behavior. All of it sounds rude and unprofessional.

2. I was addressing a post you made asking for opinions. If you don't want them, you shoud not post asking for them.

3. The reason I think you are wrong is that you were in control of the domain name. Did you send him the renewal notices or did you get them? You said the domain automatically renewed in September. Well, you usurped his right to renew at that point. Who was listed as the owner of the domain name at that point? Did you renew under his name? Did you renew under your own? Your actions would most likely be seen a court in the US as renewing it on his behalf.

I am glad you have a lawyer and as I said, I don't know the laws in your jurisdiction. I do know that the actions you describe are petty and bad business. To take a domain that your former client was using and still wants and purposely renew it so he can't have it because you don't like his attitude is certainly unethical. In my country, it would not be legal either.

 

Simply put, I'm 100% sure this violates the rules of the NIC of the domain extension as simply put the client was still the owner. Basicly, as an agent, you stole the domain of your client.

It does not matter whether he pays or not, you should have let it expire and go in pending deletion phase etc when he does not pays.

 

Well, lucky for me then that I am not in the US then. It does however sound like the legal system is very fair over there.

Again, maybe you did not read the post all the way through. My registrar auto renews all my domains. I am a reseller at enom and handle thousands of domains on behalf of hundreds of clients.

He was given the domain control panel in 2006 to make the transfer out of enom to his new registrar and even responded to my email so we know he received the details.

He would have known by logging in to that control panel or doing a whois search that the domain would have been up for renewal in 2007.

Its not my responsibility to inform any client that have been "asked to leave" the patronage of my company to inform them of anything.

If he did not do his due dillegance in regards to his domain, then he is not really fit to run his company especially if his domain is so importrant.

He should not have taken the action aganst me that he did in the form of slander and threats.

What? I am just going to bend over and take any rubbish the clients give me? No. Many people would but not after all I have done for this guy in the past.

Actually, the truth is, if you honestly read your posts, you mock my thread and myself by insinuating that I am 15 years old because my actions do not agree with your own principles. In fact your last post, brands me with being petty and unprofessional.

Those are pretty personal comments and I am dissapointed that you should target me with such unpleasantries especially after I have been quite cordial with you.

Although I welcome critiscm, personal critiscsm in the form of names is not acceptable and you should really refrain from letting your personal feelings come out on this forum in future.

Try sticking to helpful and polite posts rather than trying to purposely inflame the situation.

 

Great. You are 100% sure?

Do you have a link somewhere I can look at where i can glean some information?

It would certainly help us with the case that is brewing now.

Thanks and you have been green repped.

 

Sorry if I offended you calling your actions petty. You desribed your own actions as ethically questionable. I don't think I went too much further. I did not mean to personally attack you, but I do feel like you are not being professional and are acting like a 15 year old (by taking a name you don't want just to keep him from having it. At least that is how I might have acted at 15)

If you had simply let the domain expire and then registered it, I would not see any problem. But you renewed the domain. At the time you 'renewed' the domain, it does not appear it was yours to renew.

He sounds like a real jerk. You sound like someone smarter than sinking to his level. I am sure you were just pissed, but it was simply bad business to do. That's all. Nothing personal meant. Sorry if I came off harsh.

 

Because your registrar does it automatically, doesn't make it legal. You are still responsible, and as others posted, imo as an agent you stole the domain (without knowing/wanting it) if it was before on his name and now is registered in your name.

If it is or isn't your job to inform your client depends on the contract you had with him.
As you have a lawyer I assume you have lots of small text in your contracts. Check the original contract with this client and the letters you sent him when you asked him to leave. If it states somewhere he is responsible for registering and renewing his domain himself, you can maybe get away with it.
Also if you explicit said he should transfer the domain.

Imo I wouldn't bother with him or lose any sleep over it. Give him the domain and get the guy out of your life. It's not because he's a jerk you have to behave like one too and lower yourself to his level. Life's too short to waste your time with jerks, just use your time and energy towards something positive.

 

Normally I'd say yes. But because you did this:

You're potentially putting yourself out on a limb if you do anything with that
domain name, despite non-payment and all.

Of course, it's up to the other party if they feel like tackling a challenge.

 

What you are saying is pure conjecture.

I have no idea where you get the notion that I have any legal obligation to this client at all in respect to his domain name, seeing that 1. he is not a client anymore and 2. he did pay my company to renew the domain.

Yes, ethically I am obligated to look after the interests of my clients, however, not legally, otherwise I would have to take board certified International Domain Name Agents Examination run by the D.N.A.C.B (the Domain Name Agents Certification Board) and seeing there is no such thing, I dont.

Seeing that this person ceased to be a client after the domain name expired the last time, I have no obligation to look after his interests whatsoever.

Clients are only clients whilst they pay. There are no free rides.

Same as an insurance company, if you let your insurance lapse and have an accident, you are not covered. The Insurance company does not have an obligation to cover you if you have no insurance.

Put it another way. If I rented an apartment on a 12 month contract and paid for the full 12 months and decided on month 9 that I will go on hoilday for 6 months, is it the landlords obligation to find out where I am and ask me to renew the contract and am I entitled to use the apartment 3 months after the contract ended? No. A new tenant comes along and the contract is then in the new tenants name.

Unless someone has some startling evidence to contradict those examples as well as my lawyers advice then I am sorry but I am in the right in terms of the legal aspect of this matter.

Sure, I could cave in to this bully and give him exactly what he wants but why should I? I think its better to see him sweat and squirm a little and see him paying some legal fees.

My actions. Professional? Its questionable. Illegal. No, definetely not.

Thank you all so far for an interesting thread.

 

It depends on this little sentence I wrote in my post (and you haven't answered it or provided more detail)
> if it (domain name) was before on his name and now is registered in your name.

Rules about pending deletes may also be different if it's a .com, .co.uk, ..

But if the domain (a .com) was in his name, and on expiration date you transferred it to your name, then you stole the domain. You still renewed it then acting as if he was a client.

The domainname was upon/after expiration still legally his property (if it was on his name). If the domain name was expired it should go through the whole pending deletion process... only at the end of this process it becomes free for anyone to reuse.


If the domain name was from the beginning registered to your company, then you are correct and it's the same as your examples of renting an appartment.

 

The pending deletion process as I understand it, is a formality not a legality. Just becasue the domain name did not go through the pending deletion process does not mean the client has any legal rights to it after the expiry date.

It does not matter if the domain name was in the clients name or mine or a private whois.

As I mentioned earlier, as the reseller for the domain name and as the one providing the registration service, the domain name is automatically renewed ON MY behalf, not the clients. I then charge the client his dues whether it be at 10% or 1000% profit.

If the client does not pay his dues or make any effort to renew the domain name and neither contacts me to make arrangements to renew the domain name then again, I can do what I like, I can either drop the domain, sell the domain, transfer it to my own ownership, pretty much whatever I want.

Sure, he has a right to make a domain dispute and to be honest I welcome it.

 

He might be the biggest idiot on the planet, but as a professional host/business you shouldn’t really be doing some thing that is ethically wrong and can come around to bite you in future.

Frankly if I was an existing client of yours and I came to know about this incident, I would run as far away from you as possible!

 

Unfortunately I'll have to disagree with you and agree with the OP on this bit.
There is no legal or technical document on earth, other than that of the one
you contracted with, stating that a registrant has "rights" towards a domain
name once it expires, much more it being "his property".

In a manner of speaking, Craig is correct that it's a "formality" that an expired
domain name will go through expiration, then redemption, then pending delete.
However, there's no current requirement banning registrars from doing a thing
towards an expired domain name before it's deleted and falls into RGP.

Of course, that's a bone of contention at ICANN. Still under discussion.

Now the part that's bugging me is Craig nonetheless gave the login information
for the domain name to his ex-client, then is "changing his mind" and doing all
and anything towards that. Sending that login might be a bad business choice
after refunding his ex-client, but...what's done is done.

This is one reason why it is important to have clear, specific and enforceable
terms, and one that isn't likely to alienate judges. More importantly, do try to
stick to those terms.

Do whatever you want, Craig. It's your call anyway.

 

Yes, you are probably right.

But then again if it did come about that clients found out and there was a concern, I would simply send them copies of the recordings of the idiotic phone calls, sms messages and emails from this berk.

They would explain alot and clients would more than likely side with me immeidately.

I am itching to post them here but legally I would get into trouble.

 

But the point is that he renewed it before it expired. During that period, only one person had the right to renew and that was the current owner. Usurping that right is what subjects him to liability. We never get to the expired domain name.

He can't escape by saying 'his host' automatically renewed the domain. He is in control of those settings. In fact, he allowed his host to renew a name he did not own.

I would not want to be the one defending his actions. This is not even to mention that the other user probably has a valid trademark in the name due to prior use and the OP was certainly on notice of that. This is probably also now a case of cybersquating. His posts here will not aid in that defense either.

Of course, few people chose to fight these things as they are simply too costly for most domains, so the OP is probably not going to ever find out.

 

His rights to the domain ended on the expiry date, which is why its called an expiry date.

He had a full year to move the domain somewhere else or contact me to renew it. He has my phone number and knows where my office and home are, so there was absolutely nothing stopping him from paying his dues. If he was too ignorant to take action for such an important aspect of his online business, he should not be in business.

Whatever happens at the registry level is of no importance, different registrars have different policies. I am a reseller of domains. I take a product, in this case domain names, add my markup and sell the "rights" to use that domain.

In fact, the truth is, noone actually "owns" a domain name. They buy a license to use it. The license has a date on it.

This guy did not pay his license when he was supposed to.

This means he has no rights to the domain name outside the license period.

I dont think its any simpler than that.

As for trademarks, he has nothing formal or informal so I am not worried about that. As for my postings here, I dont know if they can be used in court or not, but I am pretty sure I can get it thrown out as evidence against me especially after I provide all the documentation in the form of email correspondence proving I did everything possible to give him access to the domain name in question.

As for cybersquatting, its not. He does not own the domain name anymore becasue he never paid the fee for the rights to use it.

I mean, if he "could" provide a proof of purchase, then he would have a case and seeing that only I provide that, then he is screwed and I have him right where I want him.

Lucky for me that I have a registered company and pay taxes meaning that any invoices raised get sent to the tax office and are on record, so he cant even fake a proof of purchase.

Something everyone needs to understand with the law, is that sure, the law is black and white, but if you know how to get around laws or have someone who knows their way around laws and can state a good case, most of the time you can use the law to your favour, whether it be for good or bad motives.

You just have to read through the WIPO decisions to see some of the cases and arguments that get upheld or turned over. Its very interesting reading!