So let me get this right, you know all, and i know nothing, is this what you want? Why dont you tell me what you believe then. You know the only reason I'm not getting anywhere with you, is because I'm the only one stating my belief, your just saying "well thats silly" (paraphrased of course) You knock me because i have a belief and you don't. So please share your beliefs about life and the world, because apparently mine, and millions of others got it all wrong. All mighty northpoint please share your mighty wisdom
I look at this in a couple of ways: 1. the word saved: If you drowned and were pulled out of the water and resuscitated - you were saved. THEN if you walked away and didn't want to believe it - that is your choice. 2. you liked what you heard and followed a teaching for a while. Were you saved? You see, I can't answer for you. That is between you and God. As a Christian I will continue to work out my salvation in fear (here is one for stox to go on a tangent with) I will continue to stumble, but having a personal relationship with Jesus and actually having that confirmed in multiple ways (all things that would drive an athiest nuts) and I know His voice, which isn't an audible voice to me, but is much more powerful. Sorry North, if you don't like my approach with stox, he has just become so annoying especially since you can't teach him a thing. His motives are clear here, he isn't looking for answers at all. I have seen you sincerely looking for answers from many religions and you have welcomed even the input from the athiest religion (yes, stox you are religious, probably more than most here will ever be.)
I guess i am religious.... If creation is a "science" and islam is "the religion of peace". i.e, When words no longer mean anything.
Simply, I am an agnostic, or atheist, however you want to frame it, who was once a Christian. I believe self-defense is a natural human act. I do not believe killing, or any other act, is ordained of God. I do not believe that any governmental action is the Plan of God, and therefore, ordained and determined. I believe such beliefs are radically dangerous in this day and age, giving the imprimatur of inevitability to choices - choices - made that affect the world of humankind. It isn't a belief, but a simple case of logic, to say your "beliefs" are based entirely on tautologies, from what I can tell - you start from a presumption, and anything not squaring with that presumption must necessarily be false, or anything that happens, must necessarily have happened by divine will, since everything happens by divine will. And that is dangerous to me. And then, when you can't seem to handle a direct appeal to reason, you start in with the name-calling. All of which testifies, to me, that you have no points to make.
Debunked, I absolutely agree - you can't answer for me, nor can I answer for you. What is in the human heart remains locked there. I take deep offense at being told what I was, and what I wasn't. I believed what I believed, and I lived it - to the point of literally embracing the Word. I tossed aside all worldly concerns, and sought communion with what I then believed to be God. I believed in the immanency of divinity, I preached. I don't know how else to say it, except that it is mighty arrogant, presumptive in the extreme, for one human being to tell another what he did or didn't believe. This differs quite a bit from taking issue with a belief. I simply believe differently now, and live it. To Stox, as I said, Stox and I have had our rows, and have never generally gotten along. But I hope it always comes back to facts, and not assumptions of personal intents. I know I've failed there as well. I just don't think any of us will get far if this is all we rest on. I believe he's made some valid points here - they happen to mirror my own thoughts; I agree with them. Acknowledging so is an acceptance that we all have something to learn from each other, in my opinion.
You went from explaining your belief directly into attacking mine, without missing a beat. So if you dont believe in God how did we come to be? When did i name call?
Please tell me - where did I attack your belief? God - well covered, in countless threads. Not interested in a days' long miasma here as well. "Tautology" is enough to discuss, at least to me, for now.
Ok you didnt exactly attack it, you just merged from your own into your disapproval of mine Northpoint i have put myself out here for you to pick and pry as you have done, and your telling me you wont do the same? its constant offense against constant defense, no ones getting anywhere
You have a pattern, Simply, of saying things after the fact of "well, I didn't exactly mean it...." This makes it very difficult to know what your stated beliefs really are. Now, I stated my beliefs. As you asked. Is this truly difficult to accept, that these are my beliefs? You would like a discussion now, on the nature of god and existence? Right - I am saying, I don't have the inclination to dive into here what I've already discussed countless times on this forum. Did you want another series of cut and pastes, such as you needed here, rather than doing the work yourself? Sorry, man - but in a thread about seawater, I won't be diving into the subject of artisinal cheese.
I figured, when ever it comes to defending your own belief, you back out. No problem. You see the truth is i state my beliefs in a very simplistic form, that you tend to purposely overlook, that way you can pick random statements and try to add or subtract from the meaning of them. In the obama thread, i made my belief known several times, but you overlooked it. In this thread Ive made my belief know several time, but its invisible to you, because it doesn't give you anything to attack. If you chose to not put your beliefs on the line than fine. But if your not going to allow me to disect your beliefs, please stop dissecting/manipulating mine
Yeah, OK. Believe what you need to, brother. It just gets old after awhile, and I'm not interested into diving into an entirely new topic with you - it is, quite honestly, just supremely frustrating, at least right now. You may want to consider a couple of other folks' thoughts (just a couple...but it might be worthwhile to think a bit on it): Or not - dismiss or accept that I am whatever you wish to think I am, and couch it however you need to, that brings you peace. I was humbled, and very grateful for Mia's and Debunked saying these kind things - because it is honestly what I shoot for. You will find, if you'd care to look, that debunked and Jeremy and I probably disagree on more things than we agree on. But I'm open. I just don't have the energy, at least not right now, Simply, when you won't bother to do the work yourself.
What ever you say, the topic hasn't changed, you just dont want to put your own beliefs on the chopping block. You would rather rip others beliefs to shreds. You know north, i am genuinely a good guy, that believes in a peaceful God. How does it make you feel to try and crush someones beliefs, that within that belief, practices living a moral, peaceful life? Why do you want to destroy what is good?
Simply, your post and my edit crossed in the mail (I edited my post, because although it's how I do feel, it was unnecessarily unkind, and served no purpose. As frustrated as I was, and remain, I don't like resorting to this kind of stuff here, so I removed it). Believe what you want to believe, as I said. I can't control your beliefs. But you asked me for my beliefs, and I stated them. Here, in this thread alone, I've made dozens of contributions. I have covered your questions, regarding existence, god, etc., likely hundreds of times by now, in other threads. I don't want to cut and paste, or restate those beliefs, here, now, in this thread. If you find that is dodging, rather than what I am telling you what it is, that again is your choice. I have no interest in attacking you or your belief. I respect everyone's right to the free practice of their faith. As I have said on this forum, numerous times, I only take issue with religion when in my opinion it has implications I find damaging to human welfare, now, here and now. I find your viewpoints regarding human and governmental actions troubling in this respect; and this has been the sole source of my debate with you here.
Again if one truly believes, and obeys, and is genuine, and as sincere, as possible, How can my views be troubling. My views are of peace, submission, love and kindness. This is troubling to you? Granted i may fall short here or there. But the point is to try, to seek these things with heart and soul. I believe that what happens is Gods will. Now tell me what would happen, if all people seeked these things sincerely? The problem is you think christians use it as an excuse, to allow them to do bad things. But a Christian, tries his best to only do good. I am a christian, i want to please God, thats what its all about. When i do something i know God hates, I feel really bad. And i ask for forgiveness, with no intentions of doing it again. Will i do it again? Maybe, But the point is that i dont intend to, that i try not to. If you are not trying to do Gods will, you are not practicing, christianity.
Please see this. These are facts, as you posted them, not my opinions of those facts. Do you understand why some, myself included, might find this troublingly contradictory?
I have addressed that a few times, you just dont seem to get it. your right, i have contradicted the bible and my own beliefs, and i also said pride was an issue I'm working on. Now look at the whole picture, what am i fighting for? Freedom, law, rights. your right this is very troubling <-sarcasm smiley I dont not want to kill, I am not a murderer. I am a proud person, that finds it hard to back down form confrontation. But like i said, I'm working on it, i want to be of peace, and i seek peace far more than fights.
I'm sorry - but going back to post #650, I do see that you have mentioned pride is a problem for you, but haven't seen you state clearly that seeking to fight, meaning, to kill, is wrong. To: Given: I did ask: But to my knowledge, the only response I did get, to this question, was: Which brings us back to square one, it seems to me. I am sorry if I merely missed it. Now: I again reiterate that I am troubled by the notion that as God appoints governments, and governments make choices and take actions, that the results are necessarily God's Plan. Because there are things that happen on this earth, that very much damage human welfare. And I am troubled by the implications of what you are saying, because, again, it gives the imprimatur of inevitability, and removes responsibility for grossly irresponsible statesmanship - the extinction of the human species becomes "God's Will." I am, indeed, deeply troubled by this kind of logic.
I see your point with that, which is why have decided to seek more information on the subject (which i believe i also said to wisdomtool), i havent studied the appointed governemnt issue much, i do remember hearing it at one point or another, but never looked into it. Which i will do so, hopefully to find some kind of conditioniing.
npt - there is a difference between God appointing governments and God allowing governments to exist. To say that God approves the governments we have today would be inaccurate. Read Daniel 2:44 to see what will happen to these Governments. The book of Revelation is full of information about how God feels about these Governments and what will be done with them. Jesus made a good point when asked about tax collection. He said "Pay Caesar's things to Caesar and God things to God". No nation owns in absolute right the land it governs. The entire earth belongs to God. However, he allows governments to reside and rule parts the earth. Although some govern badly, we humans rely on our governments for necessary things. Like, water, police, fire, hospitals, councils etc.., some act badly and will be judged accordingly when the time comes. So, when Jesus said this. He means, put up with those who govern you but as long as you (the individual) do not compromise things owed to God. Read above the point I posted to npt. Regards, Col