"Tough choices, end occupation of Arab Land"

i can see you agree with your buddy ahmadinejad that peace is not possible

 

The Israelis withdrew from 100% of Gaza and look at the result.

 

hamas represents the extrimists on the side of the palestanians. they also agree with bogart as the possibility of success in bringing peace between Israel and palestanians.
both deserve our rejection of their ways and goals.

 

Israel fully knew that withdraw from Gaza is not about peace but a strategical
move.
peace is an agreement between two people to cease hostility and pursue cooperation in the future.
no matter what your reason for opposition to peace you should know that you are in agreement with your friend ahmadinejad and pursuing the same goal.

 

I try to stay out of all of these threads. I would advise for the US to stay out of this particular region as well. Reconciliation can occur, but not when the most aggressive force in the middle east is trying to preach peace and compromise to two parties that have a long history of conflict.

The Israelis and Palestinians need to find the internal leadership and political will to make change and peace happen. External influences that are not truly neutral, either in disposition or appearance only serve to complicate the process.

 

Both Ireland and Northern Ireland have negative population growth.

Whereas the Palestinian population is doubling every 10 years.

 

First, source, please?

Secondly, your point, sincerely? Population levels = intractability of hostile actors?

Man, now I know why I'm ready to overthrow Daley.

Seriously, Bogart, don't get your point.

Edited to add: on better reflection, are you saying that the Palestinian population will simply outgrow any conceivable solution, due to limitations on land, because of this allegedly high population growth?

 

Of course I have a source. I don't think there is any contradiction. One statement is from Hamas, one from Abbas.

I think it was an AP article, but I searched the quote again and came up with at least 3 sources for the quotes:

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/ap/index.cfm?page=view&id=D8U38C280
http://www.pr-inside.com/bush-predicts-mideast-peace-treaty-before-r380479.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-7214529,00.html

I am sure the same article will show up in many more sources as well.

 

Bogart, just did some extremely preliminary reading, as a jumping off point. From what I just read, estimated growth rates are 2.985% (West Bank) and 3.71% (Gaza).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestinian_Authority#Population_growth_rate_2

http://www.azure.org.il/magazine/magazine.asp?id=308

 

Brown, I realize I was not thinking. Sorry. I glossed over "Hamas" and saw "Palestinian" spokesman, and was confused, given Abbas' statements. Of course, if Hamas hamstrings leadership, as Arafat was hamstrung (whatever level of good faith existed in the man), then it's a non-starter.

I should mention - I was at Berkeley during the '80's. I was 20 feet or so from Benjamin Netanyahu, who was giving a talk. During his speech, at some point, he launched into a condemnation of the famous line "we will drive you to the sea," and the room erupted in counter-protest. It has stayed with me since. As long as either side believes the only answer is the extermination of the other, nothing will ever be accomplished. Hamas is a force of destruction, as are the settlers refusing to yield to even their own government, citing religious santification to ownership of the land they sit on. Both sides of extremism need to be quieted if any headway is to be accomplished.

On another issue - and as a standing statement of my own principles, by the way: in asking for source, I'm not accusing you of lying - I'm just asking for a source, so I can review data and so forth myself. Thanks for the links.

 

There is another side of this equation as well.

End the occupation of ISRAEL's lands and end the occupation by muslims of other countries throughout the region.

Israel was Israel long before islam was ever invented. To this day, there are muslims that still occupy parts of her land. Likewise, islam was spread via the sword throughout the region in wars of conquest, to expand islam (it's goal being world domination). So we could end those occupations in the region as well.

You see, it can work both ways. To Israel's credit, it has time and time and time again reached out for peace. It has been attacked and wars have been declared against, and as a result, won victories and territories because of the actions of others. Yet, Israel bends over backwards and gives lands back to "occupiers" that have aggressively started wars with her.

As yourself this question: In all the wars of conquest started by islam, since it's inception, name one piece of land they have given back to their owners as a gesture of good will? Anyone know the answer?

 

The next issue after the West Bank/Gaza will be "the right of return"

Current Gaza Population is 1.48 million and growing faster than projected.

"The population explosion in the Palestinian-governed Gaza Strip appears to be unrivaled in the world. Its population of 1.1 million -- half under 15 -- is expected to double by 2014"

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E6DE1130F937A15751C0A9669C8B63

International Monetary Fund states "The West Bank and Gaza has the highest population growth in the world"
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/nft/2001/west/

 

I knew you were just asking for a source and never thought otherwise. My comment about 'of course' having a source was just playful.

I think Hamas/Arafat or Hamas/Abbas is just the same good cop/bad cop that basically prevents an agreement from happening. The Palestinians really need to speak with one voice.

Seriously, who on the Palestinian side do you need to negotiate with to get peace? Is it Abbas or Hamas? And they don't agree themselves, so how can any deal get done until they speak with one voice.

 

The Palestinian fertility rate in Gaza is 5.79 children born/woman and 50% of the population of Gaza is under 15. Gaza is on the verge of a Population explosition and will soon have more people than Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories

 

Thanks for the cites (you as well, Brown) - extremely exhausted, so can only give a cursory look right now - but interesting thread.

Off the top, Bogart, you didn't finish the sentence in your IMF quote. It actually said:

The IMF article went on, further, to say:

-and the article was an economic, not demographic, analysis.

Very interesting NYT article. Thanks again for the link.

Bogart, I again ask - is your contention that this growth rate, as you allege (not denying it, by the way - it's a new piece of information to me, and I want to evaluate it), makes the peace process untenable, because the land available to sustain it is just too finite, limited?

Brown, my work at Berkeley, and my primary interest then (beyond a theory of industrialization and nationalism), was on coalition building, especially within parliamentary regimes. Again, when all pistons are back to firing, looking forward to evaluating your contentions and posting a thought or two.

I'm cashed, with apologies to the both of you, for not going in deeper right now. As always, I appreciate a good debate, and hope to learn something new. I look forward to delving in a bit more.

Paul

 

Both sides in the troubles live in Northern Ireland. But i'm sure you experts on world affairs already know that...

 

Not sure what your smugness rests upon.


If you'll re-read my post, I indicated several centuries of conflict for all Ireland, with a significant increase in saliency over "the Irish Question" for the six counties of Northern Ireland following the establishment of the Republic. "The Troubles" is only one era, in a long history. It was only after 1922 that the conflict was squarely centered in those six counties of Ulster. Within the Good Friday agreement itself is an understanding that all of Ireland, by its own, unimpeded will, has the right to resolve outstanding issues between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Regardless, limiting it to Northern Ireland, two intractably hostile sides in the conflict agreed to lay down arms, an agreement that has held, more or less, for close to 10 years now. Did you have a point?

 

Bravoooooo. Let them solves their own problems.

 

If you'll re-read my post you'll see I wasn't talking to you