I would like to add something if you permit, real Christians do not kill people, those who are real, pious and religious Christians as opposed to those who claim they are Christians in name only.
*sigh* Actually if you are a christian that literally follows the bible you do unfortunately. Matthew 15:1-9 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' Romans 1:20-32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." Add in all the orders to kill from G-d in the old testament. I could list them here but G-d's hit list was long: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
Sorry, I've been away for a few hours. Let's pierce the miasma. Your argument rests on stating that Hitler was a Christian, and that people indicating he was not in following out his creed are pursuing a No True Scotsman fallacy. I return to my original point. The argument is only circular, a No True Scotsman fallacy, if, in fact, the man was a Christian. How do we judge? I have offered it goes to an authority, as accepted by most reasonable people. As such, it isn't a subjective evaluation - by definition, agreeing to go with an authority means it is an objective evaluation. It has nothing to do with what the man declared. It has to do with whether the man's words and deeds can be supportable as indicating "Christian" by reliance on this authority we all agree to use. I have offered the Christian text as that authority, and I have asked for proof anywhere in the Bible his words and deeds are supportive of the supposition he was a Christian. I find none; and though you can't be bothered to investigate the Christian text in order to determine whether an individual is reasonably to be called a Christian or not, I will simply spoon feed the bit - there isn't anything in the Bible which indicates that to kill a race of people is the Christian thing to do. By this standard, Hitler was not a Christian. Therefore, it isn't a No True Scotsman fallacy. You say it is an unfair request to make, to investigate the Christian text to see if what Hitler said and did was, in fact, in line with a Christian life. Yet you don't consider it unfair to name the man a Christian without bothering to investigate. You do rely on Mein Kampf for support of your claim. Beyond the laughably ridiculous from the standpoint of commonsense, tsk, tsk, Stox - really crappy scholarship. Here - I am appointed by my Lord and Creator to be the Destroyer of the most nefarious cancer to ever visit itself upon mankind. Namely, Tattoo parlors. I received the vision - quite some time ago, and the time is only now propitious for its revelation. But having seen the example of my Redeemer, I know, by the solemn oath I have pledged, that I have been commanded to Make Known, to all cancerous parlor owners, that their day is now over. Of course, I rely solidly on the scripture we all have, as the blessed example for my providential birth: These parlor shop vermin are polluters of the nobility of the un-stained body, and I will not rest, cannot rest, until I fulfill my Christian duty to rid the world of this race of vipers, and make it clean, once and for all. You can understand it all, by referencing my text, now available on Amazon, entitled "Patina of the Spotless Corpus: My Journey to God's Mission." Amen. Or, in other words,
These verses a lot of people take out of context frequently, so let us take a look at the whole verses: Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: 2 “Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.†3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God,†6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ A footnote in the Reference Bible for verse 4 says "Or "die without fail"". Jesus was quoting from the Mosaic Law and highlighting how wrong the Pharisees and the scribes got the meaning of those scriptures wrong. In Moses' time it was pivotal to honor your parents. In fact, it was a commandment. However, the entire verses here was about the responsibility of caring for your parents and true worship, and had nothing to do with the killing of mothers and fathers at all. It had to do with false worship to God as per verse 9 where Jesus pointed this out to the Pharisees. Romans 1:20-32 states: For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. 22 Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish 23 and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things. 24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error. 28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them. You have taken one small part out of these verses and put in the incorrect context. I can't see where you are heading with these two verses?? Hope this makes things a bit clearer for all. Col
OK, but what about... "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" The old testament says you should kill people for all kinds of things. Here is a link of murders recommended by G-d. Warning:This website does not like christianity.
The Bible is fraught with blood bathing. Nowhere is there a decree to wipe out world Jewry as the Christian thing to do. Which is the subject of the exchange, anyway, between myself and Stox.
I'm wasn't commenting about hitler. But now that you mention it, my 2 cents on hitler... Hitler was a liar. He would have said anything to further his purpose. You can find qoutes by him saying that he is a christian. He also said he hated christianity. He also promised never to persecute a religious group before the holocaust was carried out. Anyway, back to reading cheapseo's post...
I know, Rebecca - I understand your point. Just being a selfish prick in hoping to keep it on track with the exchange with Stox. Since it's so rewarding.
The commandments by God at that point in time were for the people of that time. There were laws for all sorts of things and penalties for not obeying those laws. We have laws in Australia, America, Britain and all other countries around the world. What happens to people who are caught smuggling drugs in Asian countries? They are hanged, some are shot, some are imprisoned for life according to the laws of that country. Now, with that in mind, people that were persecuting, oppressing or attacking God's people of those times were not paying attention to God's commandments. Thus, they broke God's laws and had to be punished accordingly. But here's the BIGGEST PIECE of information you need to read. What people have done in God's name since Jesus became the Messiah is completely apart from God's will or law. Those who killed in God's name from 30CE to today and onwards are in no way instructed by God to do so. Many have taken verses from the Bible with having absolutely no idea what those verses mean and have killed others because of taking things out of context. God says "vengeance is mine, I will repay". Meaning, us as humans do not do his fighting or killing. He will remove all wicked when the time is right according to his will. Those who have done these things and are still alive at the day of Armageddon will know exactly who and what they are facing. Read Revelation 16:13-16 and Ezekiel 36:23 and 38:23.
OH! I understand now. You made your point, now it is clear. G-d doesn't want the christians to kill, he wants to do it himself. I still think all those laws are barbaric, but at least now I understand what you mean. Sorry if I seem a little dense, it's been a long day. OK Northpoint, you can have your thread back!
No, thanks, Rebecca - I think you might have just saved a marriage. The screams you hear are mine - my wife's hands around my throat, asking me to do some productive writing that actually helps the world in some way, over uselessly arguing on DP.
I as a human and also a Christian think that the penalties were very heavy as well. However, the difference between what I know about those people and what God knows about those people is the difference between black and white. For example, we look at a person, we hear what he says, we see what he does and how he treats others. God however, hears and sees the same but he also reads what is in his heart. We don't have this ability to KNOW what motivates people to do and say things. We can, at best, only guess or estimate according to the information we take in. When I see God's organization in action around the globe, doing his will, according to what is written in accuracy, I see a solid organisation based on trust, faith and predominantly, love. The way this organisation operates so well is an identifying mark that God blesses it because it is doing things according to his will. I am proud that I remain neutral politically, don't engage in war and treat others the way I would like to be treated in a respectful manner. However, I am imperfect like everyone else on this planet and have done things wrong sometimes. I can only ask for forgiveness and pray that I do not ever make the same mistake again. If only others would have a similar attitude. The world would certainly be a better place to live. Alas! It is written that this world (society or the way we live) will get worse before the end comes as it is written in Matthew 24:14.
You should write some ebooks. I have resell rights to the ebook writer pro. It is super easy. You just type your ebook in the software and then press one button to convert it to PDF. Let me know if you want a free copy.
Hey, thanks, Rebecca. We're trying to find a way to travel and continue to do what we do, and I have danced around the notion in the past. Anything you'd be willing to share, I'd be very grateful.
I wrote that verse down, I'll read it sometimes. Right now I have to go update my blogs. Have a nice evening. OK, I'll pm you both with the download link.
LOL, I hear the same thing from my wife everyday... Few days back she said - "I just can't believe what ridiculous amount of time you guys have in hand to discuss two of the utterly non-sense topics in this world - 'politics and religion'". Well I don't listen to her as she thinks sports is also one of those utterly non-sense topics.
Over here in the UK Religious Education is a compulsory subject. I am myself Atheist who did well in my final GCSE results in Religious Studies, real reason why, 'it interested me'. I used to love bringing up the contradictions in the Bible and watching the teacher stutter to try and reverse my findings. I personally think it is disgusting that R.E. is compulsory, it should be something that should be done after school (if the child decides they want to follow that faith). Secondly, why is it that in schools the government insist that their primary faith is taught, really this is just monopolisation of religion. People should have a choice as to which faith they want to follow. The reason why I am so disgusted is because children have a gullible way of thinking, usually anything an elder says, the child will believe as being the truth. When NO ONE actually know what actually is true and what happens after life on earth - that is why they are called FAITH's since you need faith to follow one. Plus the way the school's teach religion is like you cannot argue it, I remember when I was in primary school and I always argued things I didn't think were feasible or possible, I got into trouble for this. Shouldn't I really of been rewarded? I mean I didn't do anything wrong, all I did was asked questions, and funny enough no one can answer them...so why teach what you don't know. I like the way science works, everything is a theory until proven. So really all your religious books are theories (very contradicted ones). All I remember is that God is forgiving and he forgives everyone, so even if I am wrong I am off to heaven anyway, what a deal!
Hmmm...I'll gladly talk about religion because I normally do every day face to face. But politics I stay away from.