Immigration : The Real War on America?

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by guerilla, Dec 3, 2007.

  1. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #61
    I'm working through Peter Schiff's "Crash proof" right now. He explains this much better than I do, with some simple but precise analogies.

    The entire notion of moving to a service based economy is ridiculous. It would and has drastically reduced American sovereignty. I mean, we talk about developing alternative energy sources to combat dependence on foreign oil, and then some people argue that we should establish outside dependencies for food, water and commercially developed goods.

    America rose to be a world economic power through it's industrial might and entrepreneurial spirit, not the power of it's service industries and corporatism.
     
    guerilla, Dec 5, 2007 IP
  2. bogart

    bogart Notable Member

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    #62
    Services are being outsourced offshore and manufacturing is moving overseas. What more do you have left?
     
    bogart, Dec 5, 2007 IP
  3. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

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    #63
    Old book, and from my talks with him last summer (after 20+ years, I gave brief consideration to going back to finish my PhD), I got the sense his theories have been largely passed by, now, but a good read from an old professor of mine is Manufacturing Matters: The Myth of the Post-Industrial Economy, co-authored by John Zysman (my prof) and Stephen Cohen. I did an abysmal job as their RA on the book, but then I was about one-foot into leaving for L.A. to become a movie star.

    Their thinktank, Berkeley Roundtable on the International Economy (BRIE - I know, I know), does some interesting things:

    http://brie.berkeley.edu/~briewww/
     
    northpointaiki, Dec 5, 2007 IP
  4. bogart

    bogart Notable Member

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    #64
    Someone should tell Germany and Japan that they need to give up manufacturing and become a service economy.
     
    bogart, Dec 5, 2007 IP
  5. cupid

    cupid Peon

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    #65
    I didn't listen to the whole video. Initially he is saying, it's ok for European to dismantle and destroy Native Indians and put in place a fake system in Washington which is elected by fake majority. But if some group, that are as much as close to Native Indians, do the same as previous European Immigrants, but without guns, this guy has problems.

    Hypocrite. Mexicans have much more in common with Native Indians than so called Americans.
     
    cupid, Dec 5, 2007 IP
  6. Dead Corn

    Dead Corn Peon

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    #66
    Illegal immigrants! Illegal immigrants!! ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!!! Don't you get it boyos, this is a focus swap from the political machine. I was watching a show about 1960. That poor young black child being escorted into a school down south by the National Guard while "good white mothers" screamed vile hatred at her. These same mothers, no doubt, if it were today, or if any of them are still alive, would surely hang their heads in shame.

    Now we have the illegal immigrants to take our focus away from a war which is devastating our childrens futures as we speak. Kids going to college who don't know when the civil war was fought, or where the District of Columbia is. We have a country with vanishing pension jobs (no, sorry guys, illegal immigrants are barely working pension jobs, that's just another curve ball) while Social Security is questionable and the burden of medical for these old-timers is going to further challenge us all.

    Meanwhile we have politicians now leading the pack who cannot or will not answer the simplest questions and want only to bang the drum about illegal aliens... The new jews for our era...

    Ask yourselves:

    What Would McCarthy Do?
     
    Dead Corn, Dec 8, 2007 IP
  7. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #67
    They need to think of something, as both of their economies are tanking.

    Germany is currently experiencing their highest unemployment rate since 1933.

    Unemployment in Japan is also rising, but their unique reporting standards make direct comparisons difficult.
     
    Will.Spencer, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  8. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #68
    Someone in the domestic economy (the outsourcer) is now making more money -- because they are working smarter. They are creating equal or greater output from the same or lesser inputs.

    That's economics. That's Adam Smith's invisible hand working exactly as it should work.

    The work goes to those who can produce most efficiently.

    The domestic worker had better figure out how to produce more or better, or he doesn't deserve to keep his job.

    The system is fair, and that's what people seem to be arguing against -- fairness.

    Now government -- that's a different issue. If your government is screwing your economy's international competitiveness by imposing income taxes instead of sales taxes -- then you have only yourself to blame.

    Change your government and get rid of those nasty old socialist systems.
     
    Will.Spencer, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  9. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #69
    But they aren't making more money for long, because the work force that earns the wages to produce their goods, keeps shrinking.

    There is something to be said for having a book of business.
     
    guerilla, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  10. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #70
    The work force isn't shrinking, it's growing. In fact, it's now global.

    Please re-read your own post. You may want to re-post once you get your argument together.
     
    Will.Spencer, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  11. bogart

    bogart Notable Member

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    #71
    You are not selling a level playing field when it comes to things like health care.

    The employer avoids workman's compensation and healthcare for illegal aliens and pushes off the expense on the taxpayer. In many industries illegal aliens are perferred to resident aliens and citizens.
     
    bogart, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  12. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #72
    And that's the problem with the globalists and the Keynesians.

    They don't address the social value of a job, or the social value of a product.

    Under their thinking, if slave labor produces goods more efficiently, the all jobs should go to the slave labor colony.

    But we all know that the quality of life for one worker compared to another, is directly influenced by their wage and work related benefits.

    Real efficiency is created by economies of scale, scientific/technological advancement and education/training. It is not created by sacrificing social or moral value to attain lower production costs.
     
    guerilla, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  13. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #73
    Don't blame free market economics for the ills caused by socialist government policies.

    The employer gains the same benefits by hiring anyone under the table -- not just immigrants.

    Well of course! Immigrants tend to have a better work ethic than the welfare junkies who sit on their asses and vote the Democratic ticket in every election!
     
    Will.Spencer, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  14. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #74
    Only a Democrat would call an illegal alien an immigrant.

    The tax payers subsidize the illegal aliens with healthcare, education etc. making the cost of illegal alien labor much higher.

    But again, in the globalist Keynesian failed logic, social value doesn't exist in economics.
     
    guerilla, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  15. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #75
    Let me help clear up your confusion:
    immigrant
    a: a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence
    Source: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/immigrant

    Unlike your pejorative "illegal alien" this word has no propaganda value.

    One again I must caution you against blaming free market economics for the ills caused by socialist government policies.

    It is not the free movement of goods and labor which is causing these issues -- it is the socialist policies of the U.S. government and state governments.

    Actually, Keynesians are all about social value. That's one of the great weakness of Keynesian economics -- it is more politics than economics.

    Please read Chapter 24 of The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, Concluding Notes on the Social Philosophy towards which the General Theory might Lead for a general introduction to social value in Keynes economic theories.

    I have a strong dislike for Keynesian economics. But, it is best to understand something before you attack it.
     
    Will.Spencer, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  16. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #76
    Illegal Alien is a pejorative? That's a new one.
     
    guerilla, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  17. Will.Spencer

    Will.Spencer NetBuilder

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    #77
    OK, back to the dictionary we go!
    pejorative
    : having negative connotations; especially : tending to disparage or belittle​
    To say that someone is illegal is definitely a "negative connotation" and furthermore it is a term used to disparage and belittle them.

    Moreover, it is used to help people distance themselves emotionally from these individuals so as to limit the feeling of human kinship and help justify harsh and inhumane persecution.
     
    Will.Spencer, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  18. Dollar

    Dollar Active Member

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    #78
    Dollar, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  19. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #79
    Will, did you have an immigration gumball?
     
    guerilla, Dec 12, 2007 IP
  20. guerilla

    guerilla Notable Member

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    #80
    I see. So illegal aliens are not illegal and they are not aliens right?

    What word would you attribute to someone operating outside of, and in contradiction to the law?

    Criminal Aliens?
    Wicked Aliens?
    Felonious Aliens?
    Delinquent Aliens?

    How do you distinguish in language (which you have admitted is a failure of yours to communicate simply) the difference between an immigrant who is in the country with permission, following the process of sanctioned immigration and someone who is in the country without following that sanctioned process, without permission?

    Pick your adjective.
     
    guerilla, Dec 12, 2007 IP