Hey buddy, this thread was started by you I think you've got a very valid point about the crucifixion. And a very simple one to understand, unless of course your organisation tells you otherwise. Heck even an atheist/agnostic knows what a crucigixion implies.
Before you go spouting off stuff about things that are "written" you might want to look at the Greek transcripts and the translation processes AND the LAW that is quoted in th Bible itself dealing with criminals who were crucified. Try doing a bit of wider reading. You just might find out the ones you have been listening to have not been teaching you the truths about the Bible. You can accuse and assume all you like. But the truth will always ring loud and clear in the end. There's nothing worse than getting egg on your face. Humility is one of the biggest factors in gaining God's favour.
When Jesus finally died on the cross, the earth shook, and the curtain of the Jewish Temple split in half. If you look into the history of the Jewish Temple, and before that, the mobile tabernacle they used, it was very exclusive up until God sent his son, as prophesied, to not just abolish the law, but to finish the law. Jesus' last words (I think, didn't re-look it up) was in greek something... but it means "It is finished". Then after that, the only sin was not to love your neighbor as yourself, because without that, comes all kinds of other evils and hypocrisies. Now, those of us that claim the NEW Covenant, are required NOT to have faith in the law. It says that those who live by the law, with be judged by the law, but those who are free from the law (through grace, no works of our own), are FORGIVEN. Forgiveness is an interesting concept. [SIZE=-1]Romani ite domum[/SIZE]
Here's a little piece of information from one of our publications that might be of interest about the "cross" to you: The Bible’s Viewpoint Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross? THE cross is one of the most recognizable religious symbols known to man. Millions revere it, considering it to be the sacred instrument on which Jesus was put to death. Roman Catholic writer and archaeologist Adolphe-Napoleon Didron stated: “The cross has received a worship similar, if not equal, to that of Christ; this sacred wood is adored almost equally with God Himself.†Some say that the cross makes them feel closer to God when they pray. Others use it as an amulet, thinking that it protects them from evil. But should Christians use the cross as an object of veneration? Did Jesus really die on a cross? What does the Bible teach on this subject? What Does the Cross Symbolize? Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols in their worship of the fertility god Tammuz. The use of the cross spread into Egypt, India, Syria, and China. Then, centuries later, the Israelites adulterated their worship of Jehovah with acts of veneration to the false god Tammuz. The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’—Ezekiel 8:13, 14. The Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John use the Greek word stau·ros′ when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died. (Matthew 27:40; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau·ros′ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post. The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons, explains: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross.†As recorded at Acts 5:30, the apostle Peter used the word xy′lon, meaning “tree,†as a synonym for stau·ros′, denoting, not a two-beamed cross, but an ordinary piece of upright timber or tree. It was not until about 300 years after Jesus’ death that some professed Christians promoted the idea that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed cross. However, this view was based on tradition and a misuse of the Greek word stau·ros′. It is noteworthy that some ancient drawings depicting Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree. and I found this very important piece of information referring to the "law I was talking about: That Christ did not die on the traditionally shaped cross is also indicated by the testimony of the catacombs. Thus Dean Burgon, in his Letters from Rome, wrote: “I question whether a cross occurs on any Christian monument of the first four centuries.†Mons Perret, who spent fourteen years doing research in the catacombs of Rome, counted in all a total of 11,000 inscriptions among the millions of tombs. According to him, “not until the latter years of the fourth century does the sign of the cross appear.†Among the signs that do appear are the dove, a symbol of the holy spirit; the lyre, a symbol of joy; the anchor, a symbol of hope and the fish. Why the fish? Because the letters of the word “fish†in Greek are the same as the first letters of “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior.†That Christ did not die on the traditionally shaped cross is also indicated by the Bible itself. It repeatedly tells of his dying on a tree, the Greek word being xylon. (See Luke 23:31; Acts 5:30;10:39.) Xylon simply means “timber,†and “by implication a stick, club or tree or other wooden article or substance.†That is why the Gospel writers all use xylon to refer to the staves or clubs that the mob carried when they came to take Jesus. (See Matthew 26:47, 55; Mark 14:43, 48; Luke 22:52.) By saying that Christ died on a xylon these indicated that Christ died on a timber, a piece of wood. Thus the apostle Paul states that Christ became a curse to those under the law by being fastened to a xylon, since “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake [xylon].†Paul was there quoting from the law of Moses, which required that the bodies of executed criminals be fastened to a tree or stake as a warning and which meant that they were cursed by God.—Gal. 3:13; Deut. 21:22, 23, NW. A like example is found relative to one of the decrees of Cyrus, which warned that anyone refusing to obey, “a timber will be pulled out of his house and he will be impaled upon it.†In the Greek Septuagint Version the term for timber here is xylon. Again, not a cross but a simple straight beam.—Ezra 6:11, NW. Some argue that Christ died on a cross because early Christians used the letter “X†as a symbol for Christ. However, the “X†used in this manner does not at all refer to the tree on which Christ died. Rather, it stands for the name “Christ,†it being the first (Greek) letter of the name “Christ,†written “X†and pronounced “ch†or “K.†Thus “X†is an abbreviation, not a symbol. Nor does the fact that the Epistle of Barnabas and the Gospel of Nicodemus state that Jesus died on a cross prove anything. Both of these works are recognized by all authorities as forgeries. Obviously both were written after the cross had been adopted as a symbol of Christendom.
Which one? I can PM or email it to you. However, it might be available from watchtower.org (The official web site of Jehovah's Witnesses). Col
I don't understand the point of Christians who wear crosses around there necks, if they actually believe he died on the cross, are they proud of the tool that killed their lord? What a strange thing. Also I was thinking, if Jesus was God and he died, then was it another God that revived him? The whole trinity is a big lie, the word isnt even mentioned in the bible, nor does Jesus ever tell anyone he is God or to worship him. The whole trinity is a pagan invention used by paul to convert the greeks who already worshipped three Gods. You can even find it in Hinduism. http://www.rudraksha-ratna.com/hindu_trinity.php
Aceday the cross is a reminder of the sacrifice and love our lord has for us. Jesus died physically not spiritually in case you didnt fully read your bible, and sorry to say but jesus mentioned it quite a few time that he is GOD. I AM, I AM, I AM, IAM. If you went back into your hebrew and aramiac studies I AM was fully understood by the hewbrews of those day meaning he was telling them that he put himself and god on the same level. Aceday it looks like u answered without even fully understanding the bible , bible history or the history of the times that jesus grew up in. It was as plain as day that jesus told everyone that he is god. The Trinity The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Wow jesus even said in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. HMMMMM Aceday, looks to me that you spoke while ignoring all the facts that were right in the bible. Every point u just made was proven wrong god bless)))))))))))))))))0 Now that my points are made lets get back to evolution. I know im gonna shock alot of my fellow christians but i believe evolution proves the existence of god. I said evolution, not darwinian evolution. There is a big difference there. darwinian evolution says that things evolve for no reason at all , with no prupose, by chance. Many scientists throughout the last 100+ years have tried to prove darwinian evolution to be correct, and not one could do it. In fact many including a very big well known scientist actually came over from believing in it to believing intelligent design, that there had to be a creator of some sort to make this all go. http://powerflv.com/play2?cat=Docum...gent+Design+-+Unlocking+The+Mysteries+Of+Life this link will help put darwinian evolution theory to rest for good, and its about time because how can any rational mind believe that purpose could have come about from chaos lol
The "I AM" debate is far from a "win" from your side of the debate. In Matthew 6:9 Jesus made a very important comment when teaching his disciples, listeners and the apostles how to pray. "Hallow be thy name" or "Let your name be sanctified" (depending on the translation used) refers directly to God's name being the most important of all things being used in prayer. God's name is not Jesus. Who was Moses asking for how he should speak to the Isrealites in Exodus 4:10? It was Jehovah. Not Jesus. Go check your Hebrew symbols. You would be wise to read up about this here to see many credible references stating the same in Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic point to the same entity as God. After careful study of what is written in the Wiki article you can quite easily see the symbols in Hebrew and in Greek that refer to God. Now that we can see what symbol is used for God we can now look to see this symbol used in Matthew 1:24. But look! What symbol is used for Jesus in the very next chapter at Matthew 2:1?? Why it is different, is it not? Therefore, the two must be different? Therefore, your "I AM" debate has some serious flaws. I think it is time for you to do some more research my friend. Col
Strange is all I can say. When ssandecky gives you a quote from the wikipedia you discount it because it opposes the view of the Watchtower. Yet you also give a link to the wikipedia as being a reliable one but you only do this because it validates the Watchtower teaching. So which one is it? Wikipedia should only be used whenever it agrees with Watchtower and every other time it shouldn't be used? Great way to demonstrate your absurd obedience to the Watchtower. I don't have the time to type but here's a quick copy and paste: "The Watchtower Society also maintains that the Greek words "STAUROS" and "XYLON" primarily mean a 'simple stake'. Since either the cross or stake were made from a tree, that argument means nought as BOTH words also mean "WOOD" or "TREE ", which only describes what the death implement was made of, not its shape. Historians tell us that BOTH the upright stake and the cross were used for execution, and that the 'cross' could be a variety of shapes. BIBLICAL EVIDENCE It was the Roman custom at the time of Jesus' death to write the name, address and the crime for which the man was being executed on a notice board and place this above him. We know that in Jesus' case that this was done in three languages, Hebrew, Greek and Latin. This would have entailed a large notice board. The Bible tells us that this notice was placed "ABOVE HIS HEAD" which poses a problem for the Society who believe that Jesus had his hands above Him. Surely, if Jesus' hands had been above Him, it would have been a single matter for the inspired writers to state quite clearly that the notice was 'above His hands'? ONE 'NAIL' OR TWO? If Jesus died with His hands fastened above Him only one nail would have been necessary to fix His hands to the 'stake'. Yet we find that Thomas said that he would not believe Jesus had risen from the dead unless he could put his fingers in the prints of the NAILS in Jesus' hands! (John 20: 24, 25). Thomas made NO reference to ' feet ', only the hands, and by using NAILS (Plural), it is clear that more than one nail was used to fasten Jesus' hands."
LOL...and here are you copying and pasting....LOL...and at the same time accusing me of doing only what the Watchtower tells me to do. Now there's a good case of the "pot calling the kettle black" So you want to pick out one or two things from the Bible to change the Bible's entire theme? It seems to be so right here. It is impossible for your view of Jesus (along with your Trinity views) to be in harmony with the rest of the Bible. Yet, there is no point in arguing over this in this thread. This thread is about believing in evolution or not isn't it? I think you are taking this way off topic. Also, my fault for not realising this earlier. My apologies to the OP and others reading this thread. To PD, I suggest you take this up with your local Jehovah's Witnesses face to face if you so feel the need. As mentioned before, this is not the place to go into these things deeply because a lot of meaning is lost in typed words in a conversation or discussion. Regards, Col
I have not studied it much but i have heard my fellowship mention that Jesus did not die on a cross. The cross is a catholic symbol. i have heard that it was a tree or large post
SB1234 what was that URL to that comparision site you had early in this thread? I'd rather not search through 50+ pages
Crucifixion literally comes from crux, "cross," and figere, to attach. So its literal translation is the act of attach to a cross. That said, this kind of torture didn't originate with the romans, and didn't end with them. It did indeed include affixing to a stake, or to a tree with horizontal limbs, etc. From what I have read, the most usual practice in Rome is the cross, with the upright, the stipes, supporting the crossbeam, the patibulum, in either a high (the head would drop back for rest across the top of the patibulum, or droop forward) or low (the head could do nothing but drop forward when the victim's energy began to flag). I actually don't understand why the method matters as a point of contention.
Was comparsion creation vs evolution, I'm making a detailed guide with references to BOTH sides of the debate, I want to be fair and need as much data as possible, please only creditable if you can.
Not sure but you can find some great stuff here on Kent Hovinds site, He is a credited scientist with awesome arguments http://www.drdino.com/articles.php
SB1243 and others... Don't you believe evolution is possible with God still exisiting? Could, for an instance of a second be we just ALL got it wrong?