Their book is clearly corrupt, which disproves their very claim of its divinity: http://epologetics.org/bookofmormonproblems.php lol not really, science does not explain how something can come from nothing without anything, creation (not the bibles version) is much more logical imo.
North, he is correctly stating that the common people in the mormon church don't know much about the religion, it has "secrets" kind of like a secret society does, you have to earn the privilege to "know" more stuff. Once positioned properly a mormon can marry multiple wives for their future life ruling a world like earth as a god. They do this wedding ceremony in a 'temple' like they have in a few cities. The temple is like a sacred version of the normal mormon churches. In fact after the temple was built locally, including a brother-in-law who did some of the finish carpentry, they were able to view it finished before they had a cleansing ritual. Now no non-mormon is allowed in it.
Sorry, debunked, but no he's not, and neither, I think, are you, at least not from anything I know - since my oldest brother is a Church Elder, and has been for the last 35 years or so, this is utter news to me. He and his wife were "sealed" in a temple ceremony, which is a kind of marriage vow on into eternity. Sealed - as in, one on one, one man, one wife, for all of eternity. Talk about family values - I mean, I love my wife, but for the rest of all time? I think she'd get tired of my hairy ears, for one.... As to non-Mormons being allowed into the inner sanctuary of the Temple, as much as it isn't my thing, it isn't uniquely Mormon to say that only those folks with the secret handshake can enter the area. Wiki pretty much has it right: Like I said, I have my brother, pretty "properly positioned" as a senior elder within the Mormon community. I'd say I have gotten a pretty decent sense of him, as he is, well, my brother; what he believes, and what his fellows believe, as Mormons - stretching decades now. I'd appreciate the source you are relying on to make these claims. It strikes me as just a bit odd that these supposedly deeply held secrets seem to be known by apparently everyone but Mormons themselves - does it not? If these secrets are this easily obtained, so as to be privy to you, Kalvin, or me, wouldn't there be at least at least one at least moderately inquisitive lower-level Mormon who would've gotten ahold of the goods?
Yes. I understand what the parable is about. The context and the wording of the story show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account. Poverty is not being extolled, nor are riches being condemned. Rather, conduct, final rewards, and a reversal in the spiritual status, or condition, of those represented by Lazarus and by the rich man are evidently indicated. The fact that the rich man’s brothers rejected Moses and the prophets also shows that the illustration had a deeper meaning and purpose than that of contrasting poverty and the possession of riches. This is what an ancient historian wrote about it "They believe that souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot of evil souls, while the good souls receive an easy passage to a new life.†(Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 14 [i, 3]). He was talking about the then-current view of the Pharisees. But Jesus flatly rejected false teachings, including those of the Pharisees. Therefore, the parable in context was not to highlight a torment in hell but a torment in mind. To think otherwise would make the parable inconsistent with Jesus' teachings throughout the gospels. Col
Do you have a transcript of the temple ceremonies? You should try asking your brother for a copy. Then post it here. As an outsider you have no clue what to even ask to begin to find out what it is you don't know and what he isn't telling you. Has your brother ever talked to you about the concept of "milk before meat?" If you want to alienate yourself from your brother, try talking to him about the details of the temple ceremony. You could also read up on Blood Sacrifice in the book "We Believe" found in LDS bookstores. Then pose this simple question "Where does the book of mormon says Jesus was the last sacrifice?" When he shows you the verse, show him "We Believe" and what it says about the return of blood sacrifice. That'll go over real well. He'll probably take you out to dinner. My wife who used to be LDS didn't know what she didn't know either until I gave her the book I linked earlier to read. She left before she met me for her own reasons.
This has got to top the most ridiculous post I have seen from this member, and that took a titanic effort, truly. I have asked my brother what it entailed. My brother. He told me, and it all sounded quite beautiful. In steps KalvinB, again, the self-proclaimed delineator of what is, or isn't Christ's plan for Man, to tell me my own brother is a liar, and, more, values his "Mormon lies" more than telling his youngest brother the truth. And, of course, as brother to my Mormon brother, I am clearly an outsider, while Kalvin is, uh, what is he again? Ex-Mormon? An inside hatchet job? Just a really pissed off fella with a very tragic agenda? I will hold my tongue. Edited to add: As is his custom, the man reads the reply and edits his original post to appear as if he's actually given some thought to his post. I'll just shrug, rather than write what I'll later regret.
Now that it taking something simple and making more complex, hence "adding to" the scriptures. By what you say about this one part of scripture would make Jesus a liar.
Hence?? Can't see how this is "adding" to the scriptures. It's an explanation of the parable which was asked of me. Please try not to condemn me here debunked. It's not the Christian thing to do
Seriously North, give it a dig. It isn't unknown information, there are many who have left the mormon church who would all tell the same stories. I will say, I don't know enough to tell you at what "level" you have to be to have which ceremony. But please don't try and call me a liar. I know you to be a well thought out person, one I respect your views and you personally. I don't think you should ask your brother, since it may not be good for your relationship if what I say is true.
Oh no i did the same thing once thinking id get the book in the mail.. but oh no they send these 2 guys to your house to talk about the book for hours on end..... Good Luck!
Did you see condemnation? interesting.... be careful you don't use that same judgement when reading scripture it would cause confusion. A parable may not be an actual story, but it shouldn't be used to say everything is false that was in the parable.
debunked, I'm not calling you a liar. I'm responding to my brother being called one; and, more, that he values his church membership more than his love for me. You will forgive if I get a bit testy. You referenced the temple ceremony, which is true, but you were mistaken, if I am to believe what my brother told me, that it is some sort of a ceremony to secure multiple wives on some future kingdom. It was simply a ceremony where they "seal" their marriage on into eternity. I recall when they did it, recall them recounting it in joy, and so cannot allow some third party source to stand, if I have another source, my brother.
I refer to your prior comments in other threads about "adding to the scriptures" and what that means to you. If you check back to those comments you will know what I mean. I never said that what was in the parable was false. I meant some view the parable falsely. My post was trying to clear that up for someone who asked me to explain it. You jumped in and accused me of "adding to the scriptures"....LOL
So what you're telling us is that you assume that your brother is telling you everything because you don't want to believe he would leave anything out. Nobody is calling him a liar. We're simply pointing out things that we know with very good certainty you've probably never pressed him on to get all the information. I bet you've never even heard of "Blood Sacrifice" and have probably never even looked up the term in the Journal of Discourses, much less "We Believe" found in your local LDS bookstore to see what the church has historically and recently said about the subject. Has he talked to you about "throwing pearls to swine?" Has he told you that some things are "too sacred to talk about?" Made comments like "it's not a secret, it's sacred?" I guess you love your brother too much to want to know the truth. I guess that's one more reason why you hate Jesus so much. He warned people about choosing family over him and he wasn't on the side of choosing family. My wife is really torn about the LDS church as well since her family still believes it. She'll even mention attending every once in awhile but she can't get past the things they teach that she knows are wrong. She just can't put the social aspect she likes above what she knows to be true. Occasionally she'll toss a line out to her mom to see how she responds but it's not easy. My wife was convinced I was a liar early on and she really got mad at me a few times. But she's since asked her mom about things and read up on it and found out I wasn't making things up. So, you just need to decide what is more important: the truth or believing your brother would never withhold information. It makes sense that with the situation you're in, you'd rather just reject all religion and all truth because that's easier. Did you ever wonder why you weren't there to see it first hand? Did you ever ask your brother why he and his LDS family members were more worthy than you to stand before God in the temple to witness the marriage of two people? As a Christian who taught others, I would have thought you would have picked up on the symbol of curtain of the temple being torn.
Kalvin, I haven't bothered responding until now because to be honest I am just sick to death of arguing with someone whose brain power is reminiscent of an amoeba, with the moral character of a weasel, and personal courage of a carrion-combing jackal. Not content to play god on all others (who is going to hell, in the Gospel according to Kalvin? catholics, Jehovah's witnesses, jews, mormons, muslims - am I forgetting others?), or to declare that I "hate Jesus" because I happen to think his message was precisely the opposite of what you stand for now - when I hold the historical Christ in higher regard than you will ever dream of conceiving - you now presume to speak for what truth exists between brothers, and what doesn't. You are the most ignorant, arrogant, bigoted, un-christian, self-serving, self-righteous piece of dog shit I've ever had the displeasure of wasting time with. You are a stain on the Christian message, and that is all you measure up to. The only fool is me for bothering to continue the charade of civility with a punk who just needs to get himself popped in the mouth. How the most beautiful message to come to man has been so perverted by the twisted likes of you is perhaps the greatest shame. It shames any who profess themselves to follow in Christ's steps not to step up and condemn your utter perversion of the message. Here's some truth - I'll close with a simple heartfelt message, me to you: Fuck off and die. Mods, feel free.
The one your own brother used against you? That message? The one about putting Christ before family? What message of Christ exactly do you find appealing? Because you certainly hate the message that his is the only way and all other religions are wrong and those who follow them are in danger of hell. You hate the part where he judges other people. You hate the part where Paul judges other people. All you had to do was talk to him. He was your brother. But hey, you'd rather hate me than talk to your brother about why it was wrong of his church to judge you unworthy to stand before God in His temple. You could have preached the gospel to him. But instead, you just took it. You didn't want to talk about how Christ made you perfect and worthy to stand before God. The Bible says you belonged in that temple. But you couldn't say that to him. That was too hard. You had a chance to show your brother to true message of salvation that Christ brought that you love so much (supposedly) and you sat on your hands. Do you know why you judge people? Not because you're making them aware of their errors. But because you're making them aware that you care about them so much that their errors hurt you. That you want them to be better. And you would want them to want you to be better, too. You don't tell a smoker to stop smoking just because. You tell them to stop smoking because you care about them and want them to live a good life. That's a judgement that people don't like to make though. They'd rather let their friends slowly kill themselves than "judge" them. I can't imagine that if you care about your brother that him putting his religion over you didn't hurt. But you couldn't tell him that. You couldn't judge his religion because you got the wrong idea about what judgement is about. And now, you missed the most important event in your brother's life. And you want to take your frustration with religion out on me. Do you think if your brother dies before you, you'll have convinced him that you are worthy to attend the services? Or do you want to just let him continue to believe that you're not worthy because the church says so? Do you have any interest in seeing his sons or daughters get married? You could let that all slip by too. I got very angry with religion, too at one point. But I knew God was better than that. I think it's important to let people know that there's a better way. It's not God's fault people choose to put a man created wedge between them and their own family. If they don't want to listen to you, then at least you tried. Are you happy that you couldn't be the best man? Was that a better choice to be ostricized than to challenge his religion to make him see there was a better way?
I will say it to others of Christian faith, because I am done with this lost member, who writes from a place of ignorance, and who is in need of some serious correction. But as he has written some pretty damn awful things about me and my family, I will state it plainly. This marriage was a marriage, and it took place about 35+ years ago. I am 46, so you do the math as to my being "best man." I was one of my brother's attendees, you know, one of the guys wearing the goofy tuxedos with a way too puffed and pastel ruff, and my second eldest brother was best man. It was like all marriages, I suppose, with people doing the craziest things - laughing, hugging, eating, and drinking - except, as my memory now painfully recalls, being a Mormon wedding there wasn't any bubbly - bastards. My brother and his wife have been happily married for decades, raising 4 beautiful children who love and honor them, with numerous grandchildren. Guess it's part of the evil plan from Mormon central...a quick search yields, yep it sure as hell is. Here, from the LDS (Mormon) website - their view on marriage and family: Latter Day Saints on Family The ceremony that has crawled up Kalvin's ass is a simple vow, inside the Mormon tabernacle, called the "sealing ceremony," which is in essence a Church ceremony in which husband and wife declare their marriage on into eternity. Big fucking deal. Now, as an atheist, and as someone with some liberal leanings, we've had many issues to contend over; but on whether he's part of some cloaked society of evilmongers who hate Jesus Christ? Uh, no. I find them to be generally productive, caring members of our society who live out their days in peace. My other brother, I'll note, was about as low as one could go in life - near death, in Utah, he was taken in by a Mormon family who literally saved this stranger's life. In other words, I have found them to be decent people, in general, and nothing like what Kalvin in his self-righteousness would love to portray. An open call to all Christians on this board: a few utterly simple questions. The bottom line, accepting your faith. In that faith -Is it your job to behave as Kalvin has behaved, at least as long as his involvement on this board? Is it your job, or is it Christ's job to judge others? Now, I seem to recall, at one point Kalvin was busying himself with helping others to do pornsites, and helped them to avoid certain TOS, something like that; this, while busying himself worrying whether others were living in his self-proclaimed righteousness. Is it your job to busy yourselves with others' lives, or to live your life as Christlike as possible, and lead by example? Your Christ - is he, as Kalvin has written, not really about love - "everything thinks Jesus was about love, blah, blah, blah," or is he in your view the embodiment of love? Just what the hell do you truly believe? I for one, a former Christian, am sorely sad that this utter perversion of its message, from all that I recall and loved about the faith, is being allowed to stand in silence.