When John Adams signed the treaty with the Barbary Pirates, he declared the United States was not a Christian nation.
Turkey is a largely Islamic country and a secular nation. The United States is a largely Christian country and a secular nation.
I asked if you've stopped claiming it's NOT a secular country that's not proof of anything but the fact they haven't yet achieved the requirements to join are you going to continue ignoring the definition of "secular"? I asked for the christian principles that the US was founded on and you come up with some quotes, some of whom are personal thoughts expressed privately. If you look closely at your quotes you'll see that most of them (except two) talk about religion in general not about christianity. One could argue that the US was founded on jewish principles then Here are the principles America was founded on: Can you please show me which one of them are christian? Why is it sad? how exactly does it defy logic? why would you have felt a lot safer? christians were busy killing people too how is their christian heritage influencing them? [*QUOTE=iul]the text you want to quote goes here[*/QUOTE] you have to remove the two "*" and then you simply type your text after I'm actually defending america right now from a big misconception
Turkey's membership or lack thereof has nothing to do with whether it is or isn't a "muslim nation." From my reading of the history of the EU and Turkey, it seems to me it relates to criteria the EU deems important in terms of what an "EU democratic polity" means. A few examples of trouble spots would include Article 301 of the Turkish constitution; Turkey's ports being closed to shipping from Cyprus (and relations with Cyprus generally); kurdish minority rights, etc. There have also been issues regarding economic health and financial controls. On the flip side, many Turks are wary of ceding national sovereignty to a foreign body such as the EU, and particularly vexed, I'd say rightfully so, by a perception there is a double standard with respect to Turkey's entry into the EU. These are issues of nationalism, economic vitality, and domestic policy, not religion. Many of these issues were also seen when it came to allowing post-Soviet states entry into the EU. Many of these states' new constitutions had to go through several rounds of "compliance" with EU standards of what "democracy and the rule of law" entailed. Further, the EU was wary of allowing post-Soviet states into the club for fear they were weak, economically, and would simply be dependent on EU largesse without contributing to the common pool. Looking at Estonia, in particular, with a long and tragic history of being under foreign domination, on the establishment of the independent, post-Soviet state, Estonia wasn't exactly keen on ceding sovereignty to another entity; hence, its constitution was drafted with many tenets in conflict with EU protocols along lines of sovereignty and accession to EU authority. Additionally, on the establishment of independence from the (then) Soviet Union, the Estonian constitution, as drafted, was seen by the EU to be unfair with respect to ethnic Russian and other non-ethnic Estonian citizens living in the newly independent Estonia; Article 48, for instance, which gave the right of party membership only to Estonian citizens, with citizenship contingent on language and other competencies. The history of Estonia is a fragile one, and the management of ethnic rights, sovereignty and security is an ongoing process, within the context of the larger EU. Personally, I think that many of these issues come down to the Old Club not wanting new members. It does appear that the established western states have been happy to have the benefits of a European Union, but not too thrilled to allow the latter-day "cousins' to join in. **** On the Japanese as "ruthless." Japan's history is unique in the world, in that no other nation has seen such a period of civil war in its past. The Sengoku Jidai, the "Warring States" period, lasted close to 150 years, but, really, all of Japanese early history was marked by internal conflict and war. Hence, as much as zen influenced all of Japanese culture - its art, its love for nature, its reverence for simplicity, so has budo, martial ways. In fact, I'd argue, it is impossible to extract the tremendous historical weight of Zen and "the Ways" from modern Japanese life.
the EU has been continuously expanded and since this january Romania and Bulgaria are members too even though we still have a crappy economy and pretty much crappy everything over here
Even though it would not be very suitable for EU to draw the religion front as an issue, as far as i am concerned it is the very main issue. Other issues, as constutitional or basic rights, Turkey have come a very long way, the remaining part is far from being a significant trouble. Even though Turkey has participated NATO since 1950's(provides 2nd largest army after United States) and had relations with EEC all the way, member of the European Council since 1950's, OECD since begining(founder), OSC(founder), Western European Union since 1992, G20 industrial nations (1999), and EU negotitations have never came to a final step, and i don't think will ever do. Cyprus issue, Cyprus being a member without the problem resolved was already a huge EU mistake, even though Turkish Cyprus accepted Annan's UN resolution and Greek Cyprus rejected in seperate referandums in 2004, Greek Cyprus has accepted in the Union as a repsesantative of the whole Island. it's a UN issue not EU, it is used as another blackmail tool, along with the "accept genocide or keep waiting". Statistically, the EU member Turks(1.4 million), who are majorly citizens of Germany, Holland, France, Belgium and UK and some other, are already a larger population than EU member states Malta, Greek Cyprus and Luxembourg combined, and yet there are concerns. I personally no longer support EU membership, it's been 20 years since Turkey applied, more waiting is non-sense, they can live as a Christian Union(CU) all they want.
Leo, I was hoping you'd jump in. I do feel the EU has not played in good faith with your country, and to be honest, I'd say to hell with it, if I were Turkish. I was reading this a while back: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/03/opinion/edturkey.php More discouraging was a report put out by the Center for European Reform: http://www.cer.org.uk/pdf/briefing_kb_turkey_24aug07.pdf Do you honestly feel this comes down to religion, and not heel dragging on other criteria?
Yes, firstly welcome back mate. In the Northern Cyprus, there is a Turkish society who are native citizens of the Island live in, and they are suffering restrict sanctions which noone seems to care. A resolution would be mainly in their interest since the only sanction to Greek part is that from Turkey so them suffering is so very little comparing to of Turkish Cyriots. Turk Cyrpiots took a huge step accepting Annan's Plan even though the plan wasn't mostly in their favor. But EU awarded the Greek Cypriots with membership for their rejection of the plan and took them in as the only repsesantative, which also gives them the right to block Turkey's membership in many cases. That is just not the way to resolve, expecting Turkish Cypriots will give up their rights just because that way Turkey will join the EU. That's not how things work, that's -pardon me- bullshit. Do i honestly think it comes down to religion, Yes, you are a wise guy, have a short look at the recent members; Czech Republic, Cyprus, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, all members after 2004, so recent, not naming these in a negative way btw, for comparison reasons. Turkey is the 6th biggest economy in Europe, after UK, Germany, France, Spain and Italy. If you encourage democracy in Muslim countries where on the other hand treat the only true secular and democratic Muslim country like that, you can't get to nowhere. I can't think of any other reason but religion. Maybe bc it's about my country and i'm not very objective, but i still cant.
Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor_and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution ... Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska,_grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ... Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution... Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government... California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ... Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe. Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ... Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences ... Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty . establish this Constitution... Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution... Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance ... establish this Constitution. Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of t! he State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings ... Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors. Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government. Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings . establish this Constitution Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges . establish this Constitution. Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties... Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy. Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine .. acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of_the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction. Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God or our civil and religious liberty... Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe ... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity .and devoutly imploring His direction ... Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom ... establish this Constitution Minnesota 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings. Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work. Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness ... establish this Constitution ... Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty. establish this Constitution ... Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. establish this Constitution . Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution... New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience. New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors .. New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty .. New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings. North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those .. North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain... Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common ... Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ... Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences.. Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance. Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing. South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina, grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution. South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil! and religious liberties ... establish this Constitition. Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience... Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God. Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution . Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man... Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator ... can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other ... Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful! to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution ... West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God... Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility ... Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties ... establish this Constitution...
you're correct, the majority of americans are christians. Now can you please tell me which of the principles of your constitution are christian?
You can claim Turkey is a secular nation all you want. It doesn't make it secular in my eyes. Not when the majority is Muslim and favourable to the muslim majority Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. Jesus was a Jew born in Bethlehem and never travelled outside Israel. Sometimes you will hear of JudeoChristian principles. So YES, USA was founded on Judeo/Christian principles. Dude, one of the principles of Christianity is freedom. God set the Jews free. Jesus said he came to set the captives free. He came to set people free from the bondage of sin. It is all about freedom. Most values were inspired by the Bible, by Christianity. You've been given additional quotes and you still persist with nonsense: Which ones are Christian principles? Are you aware of the Senate being opened in prayer, Ten Commandments being used in the courts, The Bible being used to swear in presidents and politicians? It is sad because if there were more Christians there would be less muslim influence just to quote one fact. Less suicide bombers. Sure, your argument will be again: "Christians were killing people too." And yet, when I go through an airport it is not for Christian bombs they are checking me. It defies logic because you need to have your arguments validated at any cost. Now, let a simple dude explain something to you: The vikings weren't exactly a peaceful group. So If I am to choose between evil (the vikings) and the Christians and let's not forget like you mentioned they were killing people too, so that also makes them evil I would choose the lesser evil. Again, when I go through an airport it is not for Christian bombs they are searching me. For the simple fact they are decent people and don't blow you up. Oh yeah, and they are also more civilised and caring. Thanks for the help with the quote. Seems like it's working.
Thank you, Leo. You've given a lot of food for thought. If this is the case, it's such an absolute shame, for Europe and for Turkey - I'd argue both stand to gain tremendously from entry.
Turkey ALWAYS (recently anyway) had a stronger economy than Romania and Bulgaria combined together (and a bigger population). And why do you think Turkey is not YET a member of the EU? Let me make it clear. It's not because of religion but because Turkey is a Muslim nation. WHich basically means religion. In Greece for example about 97% claim they are Greek Orthodox so they are a "religious" country. And yet they are members of the European Union.
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. The principles in our constitution mirror the Christian ideals and idea that all are created equal; everyone possess the right in American to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's just that simple.
Respectfully, Jeremy, I don't believe these are Christian concepts as much as humanist concepts. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" was taken from John Locke (who actually opined the right to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of property"; Samuel Johnson, in a 1759 novel, first used the "pursuit of happiness" line). Although Locke was a Christian, he was also an empiricist, whose notion of tabula rasa - that we are born with a neutral innate nature, is distinguished from the Christian notion of our essentially evil nature, requiring a conscious turn to Christ. I would say that the principal religious faith of the time was deism, not Christianity.
lol, in bible it says its ok to own slaves, as long as they are foreigners, don't you guys read your own book?
You could find fault with a perfect pair of tits. I don't recall saying anything about the "Bible" or slavery..... Why not start a new thread called "OT", and go post over there? Why must you attack everyone and everything anyone says? Did mommy not hug you are something? It's gone above and beyond annoying to the point where I am truly concerned. It really concerns me that there are people like you that are so full of hatred you feel compelled to attack others. I suppose if I Googled for "Bible and murder", i'd find tons of sites out there focusing on how bad the "Bible" and Christians are. I could Google out just about any negative opinion I want I suppose. What is the point of that really? What is the point of constantly attacking other people, their beliefs, etc? Are you that angry? What happened.. Is there something I can do to help? What made you so angry?
Don't be mad at me because your holy book has BS in it actually maybe you are right MIA , people where allowed to have slave in the US for quite awhile, maybe it is based on Christian principles