And yet in about 50 years communism which has as its basis the belief there is no God, killed more people than ALL the religious wars throughout all history. I take religion over atheism.
Dear oh dear ProteinDude, You may want to actually read and do some research before pointing the finger at "Communism". If you understand the principles developed by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, you'd understand that what Stalin and Kamanev had created, certainly was not Communism. It was a dictatorship similar to the Third Reich at the time, but used extreme-left connotations to differentiate itself. I despair every time someone falls victim to the smear effect of dysphemisms. Please note that there is yet to be an actual true Communist creation, and trust me, when/if it comes around you will not have this symbolic image of evil that so many powerful people have spread around. I recommend you learn what Marx's five-stage history thesis is. The last stage is the dissolving of Socialism (the temporary vanguard government, which is as far as Stalin got, but failed on progressing towards Communism) and allowing the people to govern themselves - this self-governing event is Communism. Don't generalise and label the entire progression of stages as Communism, because they're not. Communism is a very favourable happening indeed, which reflects the American 'rugged individualism' that founded the country, in fact.
I lived under communism and let me say it again: look at the fruits of communism that has as its basis the belief (or should I say the denial) there is no God. What better proof you want? Look at the fruits. Just be glad you didn't have to experience it.
Now, I understand you must have had some horrific times living under such rule, but let me reiterate, there is yet to be a Communist development true to the writings of Marx and Engels. Just because a government can do things under the name of a theory does not mean it actually is what they claim. Look at China, they're a massive capitalist state using Communism as a label. Communism does not use the denial of God as a core belief either. I believe that the Fathers of Communism used emancipation of the common man from authoritarian regimes as the core basis. It just happens that during their era, religious dogma was also enslaving common man as in many areas during the late 19th century, state and church separation was uncommon. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to live under a repressive regime that calls itself communist, but for one I wouldn't believe its name held any weight, and two and I wouldn't want to live under a system which has yet to separate the state and church either. You must understand that just because someone or something claims to be Communist, does not necessarily give it/them credibility. Let's look at some examples: Cuba - Castro & Co. like to think of themselves and Cuba as Communist, be we all know they have a bad human rights record (as does China), and they are dictatorships. Marx opposed dictatorships and theorised the emancipation of common man to seize the country and organise themselves, teach the population how to self-govern, then dissolve and let the population make their own way. So how can you possibly say that China or Cuba are Communist states? The very phrase itself "Communist state" is an oxymoron.
Sorry dude, but just like there are certain sincere muslims who sincerely think Islam is a religion of peace, we have undeniable proof thins are completely different. Maybe you are deluding yourself in believing communism is something it's not. I don't need to read all the writings of Marx, all I need to do is look at the fruits of communism and what comes out of it. But, if I had to choose between a communist country and a country where there is no separation between of church and state, I will wholeheartedly choose the second option.
Can we do with christianity what you are doing with communism? You know, Look at the inquisition and the crusades and then state that christianity stands for torture and murder? I have a feeling you wont accept the same logic and reasoning which you are applying to communism.
And yet, in 50 years of communism many more died than in all the religious wars combined in the history of the human kind. So, even following your logic, the atheists lose big times. With the inquisition if you "repented" you got to keep not only your life but also your posessions. Atheism/communism on the other hand took all your possessions away. Again, communism is even worse. Much worse.
I see. I shall keep my knowledge and opinions of Communism, and of course you will too, but I still stand by the mechanics of a theory. This is interesting. Now, I know some people believe that Islam is by nature an evil, oppressive and violent religion, and that Muslims who acknowledge and leave this religion, are those worth staying around... Proteindude, does this mean that I, as an atheist, in your eyes, should do the same as Islamists? Am I only a worthy person if I denounce my atheism?
For a start, That is a lie, Liar, Go directly to hell, do not pass go, Do not collect 200 jesus points. Secondly, So is that a yes or no? can we use the logic that you use against communism against religion? or is it like usual with you people, One rule for you and another for everyone else? thirdly, Like what was explained to you before in short simple words, All communist states were fascist states that used the label of communism. You are going to have to start reading what people write, the monotony of repeating simple concepts to you over and over again is getting tiresome. try to take at least a little bit of it in.
Communism inevitably leads to dictatorship. Communist systems require that individuals give their natural rights to the state. The state is run by people. Those people use the rights granted to them. The other people are left with few or no rights. The entire country goes to shit. It is the inevitable result of Communism. And yet morons keep try it. People are funny that way. proteindude is right, we Atheists have a horrible track record and we need to learn some humility. Like "we can't destroy the laws of economics or fundamentals of human psychology" -- that would have saved the people of Russia from 70 years of living death.
Will, communism (or what you think communism is) has never been formed because of atheism and nobody has ever killed anyone in the name of atheism. Just because an atheist happened to kill doesn't mean his atheist beliefs were the cause of it any more than the colour of his tie, what he had for breakfast or his middle name is the cause of it. X is Y and does Z, Therefor Y is the cause of Z - It's a logical fallacy.
I agree with you, everyone tries to connect communism with atheism. And they are wrong, communism is to say others what to do, and has got nothing to do with god, they weren't coming to you and saying : Hey, dont believe this god, believe someone else. Besides, I do live in the country, and you dont know much about our country, perhaps you all dont know that orthodox means christianity, too, and I think ppl in Russia follow it better than in states. (going to church, etc.) I am an atheist, and our religion is to believe in ourselves! No need to mix communism with atheism. I could with the same success mix christianity with democracy, just because democracy appeared in christian country.
From the mouth of Marx himself in the Communist Manifesto http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html 10's of millions have been murdered in the pursuit of abolishing all religion. Feel free to continue denying facts. More people have been murdered in the pursuit of abolishing religion than in the pursuit of establishing a religion. Hitler and Lenin both railed against religion as having no place in Communism or Socialism. Only because they figured out that people cannot do without religion did they even consider allowing religion to exist in any form so long as said religion is closely monitored by the government. People in modern communist countries face death if they belong to a religion not sanctioned by the government. The Crusades killed 4.5 million Christians and 4.5 million Muslims. Hilter murdered something like 9-11 Million Jews simply because they were Jewish. Not because they wouldn't convert to some other religion. Millions more were killed trying to stop him. The amount of ignorance is stagering. All because of some stupid drugged up hippy and his retarded little song.
But hitler was a christian. There is greater evidence to suggest Hitler killed 6 million jews because he understood Jesus to have "recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them" than for his (fabricated) atheist beliefs. because surely if he was killing for his atheist beliefs he wouldn't have singled out judaism, He would have gone after all religions. Also, Don't you think it's strange that an army fighting for so called atheism (nazis) would have "God With Us" on every nazi soldiers belt buckle? once again, the religious are exposed as being plain faced filthy liars.
KalvinB, even so, atheism is not equal to communism as it doesnt include all them things that communism has, and Hitler was a christian and was borned in a christian family, its just that now all christian world does not want to believe in this fact. I can be a democrat-atheist, right? And I can be a communist-atheist, and it goes on.
Let's just say that, for the sake of argument, atheists are the most evil, wicked humans on earth. Guess what? That still doesn't make god real. Many of you are committing the fallacy of appealing to consequences of a belief. I'm not exactly an atheist, BTW.
Hitler wasn't a Christian, that topic has been gone over many times before. Hitler said many conflicting things. He was a moonbat. He believed in all sorts of psychic babble. He only spoke of Christianity as it met his political goals.
This is a very important point. Atheism is true. That's it's single greatest advantage. It's also a pain in the butt. It's a really hard and lonely way to live. But, that "true" part is a big draw.
Why deny that hitler was an atheist? He represents the good of atheism. Kills those who have religion, burn books, kill the handicapped to further the cause of evolution, scare the major religion of the area (Catholicism) into submission and even use a twisted interpretation to further the killing of Jews, join with others who hate Jews (muslims) in their cause and take on some of their attitude of world domination. Now you want to put him on the other side? He was your friend, but because he lost he isn't an atheist anymore?
I deal in realities. The reality is that he was a christian and anyone who says otherwise is either an idiot or a liar. You still persist on this ludicrous notion that an atheist would put "god with us" on the belt buckles of his army. So which are you, An idiot or a liar?