You must really hate the apostle Paul then? If you are looking at a man's prior deeds before he turned himself around? Mr Russell could have turned his fortune into a massive fortune but he didn't. What did he do? He went preaching God's word door to door just like I do today. He did it until he died. Just like the apostle Paul did. I wonder what you will bring up against Paul? Matthew 10:17-18 shows what Jesus thought about those who persecute his people. Stick as many images as you like tbarr60. There are many reading both our comments in these threads. I am very comfortable about what I have spoken about and in a positive way. Do you feel comfortable about what others might think about your negative comments? You might want to think about that. Col
Looks like you applied a canned answer from the Watchtower to the wrong question. The topic of the picture was Mr. Russell's involvement with Masonry and the pyramid and a cross on a monument next to his grave. If you want to tell me something positive, tell me something postive about any church in the last three hundred years other than the Watchtower. Groups like the Watchtower train their followers to believe they have a private interpretation and are the exclusive teachers of truth and also deny the biblical teaching that the gates of hell would not prevail. So say something positive about another church especially the ones that have been part of at least a remnant since the death of Christ.
Why would I want to comment about another church? What's this about a private interpretation? Now that you brought up the "hell" doctrine. Let's take a look at that, shall we? The Bible speaks a lot about balance. You know, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth etc.. and the odd atonement here and there. I would be very surprised if you denied this was in the Bible. Now let's look at the average life span of man being 70 years. Man is sinful for 70 years doing some pretty bad things in his life. According to the "Hell" doctrine, he is tortured eternally. Not just for 70 years or for the amount of time he spent doing bad things.........eternally. Does that sound logical or balanced to you? Try and get a large piece of paper and draw the set of scales on it. On the left you have a timeline drawing of 70 years. On the right you have you have eternal torture....errrr....ummmm...have not got a big enough piece of paper to draw an eternal timeline...hmmmm...something's not right here!! Oh! By the way! What I just illustrated here was out of my own head and not from the Watchtower's teaching. "But how can this be so?" you ask. Witnesses don't have their own minds. tbarr60, pull your head out of the sand mate! Those worms down there will eat your brain matter away! If you have not got anything nice to say then why bother saying anything? Obviously you are not getting that point, neither the same point from Paul (remember when he said "seasoned with salt"?)
The private interpretations are almost endless. Give me an example of a church that existed just prior to the incorporation of the organization. The Bible says " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." This would not be commenting on another church as the Watchtower should be a continuation of the church that has always existed and at times thrived and at least had a remnant.
The Bible speaks of the "appointed times" which is a period of time where God did not appoint a King for 2520 years. Hey? But you have our literature don't you? You should already know this!
Here where is the archangel Michael errrr jesus where u need him. I can imagine any JW would have a heck of a time distinguishing between the 2. Oh also did u guys realize that there is a secret committee that helps to translate the fake JW bible? Tell me guys who does the bible talk about when they talk about hiding in secrecy ????????? I would like to get the names of the people on the watch tower committee that officially translate the jw bible. Tbarr exactly, the jw religion is one that just popped out of no where in the 1800's. The church that jesus christ talks about has was always there. HMMMMMMM
I had girlfriend who was a Jehovah Witness her Daughter got sick they refused to get a blood transfusion the little girl was getting better but then the courts stepped in ordered the blood transfusion and Juliet died so the parents sued and won so to me I think it should be left up to the parents
There's an old term used to describe the JWs tactics when confronted on a tough point in scripture, it's called "Bible hopscotch". I don't know how many times I dragged JWs back to a scripture before they started targeting less affluent, less educated areas in Southern California. He doesn't want to say that the gates of hell prevailed for centuries before the Watchtower came about so he starts talking about time prior to the kings of Jews. So now Cheap SEO Services is thread hopscotching. He has yet to say how many people have met there death by way of the Watchtower's teaching on blood, I am sure the organization keeps records of their blood martyrs as well as they kept their 23,720 child molester reports. He won't mention any church movement that was part of the continuous church dating back to Peter. How about you answer questions directly and not hopscotch away every time it doesn't reflect well on the organization?
I answered your question directly. You gotta pull your fingers out of your ears to listen. You asked me what church. I basically said "no church". God did not have a King installed between 607 BCE and 1914. This totals 2520 years does it not? I am not going to answer anyone's loaded questions. You know it is a loaded question. If you are not sure what a loaded question is I suggest you Google it to find out. Then you will know why I am not answering the question you are asking about the number of deaths or child molester reports. You can use as many terms as you like. It still does not take away the "reason" for my actions. Your line of questioning is similar to someone asking you this "Would you prefer to kill a black baby or a white baby?" Get the point? There's no allowance is there? That is a loaded question and is no different to the one you are asking me in this regard. If you start being a bit more positive and less aggressive I might answer your questions. I know exactly where you are coming from. I don't like where you are coming from because I used to behave like that too. I upset a lot of people that way and I don't want to go down that path again.
Basically i see alot of former christians that are totally ignorant about the bible get preyed on by jw's because these people never even bothered to open a bible or study it in their lives. No religion that is shrouded in secrecy can be from jesus. Again i ask any JW in here to name the names of the people on the committee that translates their version of the bible. But now answer. Jesus never hide in the darkness and no religion that follows his teaching can hide in the darkness. This is one of the foundations of christianity and thats why i say JW's arent christian. Do u really seriously believe that jesus would have told one person on this earth to not allow blood transfusions?
Preyed on?? LOL. We witness to everyone we can. Even ministers of your church (if they will allow us of course!). I could find out and so could you. Ring up the Watchtower Society in Brooklyn and find out. But does it matter who did the translation if we can all use tools to translate it ourselves? Go look at the Emphatic Diaglott for one resource. It's not written by the Watchtower Society but it is a tool we use so we as individuals can see for ourselves. Also, while you do that. Look up Westcott and Hort. You will find these two were not Jehovah's Witnesses either. God has used many people to preserve his word alive over the thousands of years. Look at Luther for example. Where would we all be if it was not for his deeds and ambitions? We would be centuries behind in knowledge if it were not for him. That's your decision and you are entitled to your decision. However, I say you are completely and utterly wrong about your findings. There are no secrets about Jehovah's Witnesses. There are plenty of false accusations though. I ask you where is the proof? You are the one accusing. Now provide your evidence. Did Jesus not quote Mosaic Laws on occasions? Did he not quote commandments when questioned about certain matters? Why would this not be any different about the verses in Genesis 9:3-4 and Leviticus 17:10, 13-14 ? Are we not living souls? Even in Acts 15:19-21 it puts fornication in the same category as blood to abstain from.
Just say it directly, not "basically". A loaded question is like the classic "Have you stopped beating your wife?" and I didn't ask the question "Has the Watchtower stopped murdering innocent people?", I just asked how many people have died from the blood policy, no loading. I am not asking you if you would prefer that any one die from the blood policy of the Watchtower, I am just asking how many have died in total. One of the Watchtower publications had a piece on several children that died for the doctrine so they do keep track. I make positive statements about Christian church, the Bible, patriotism, strong families, and the minds God has given us. You can't say anything positive about any church other than the Watchtower. You think the Bible is impotent on its own and needs an organization. You would not defend your own country or salute its flag. You wouldn't attend many traditional family gatherings and would shun someone freed from the organization. And you would never use your own mind to decide to differ from the organization on an issue even if it met saving lives. Don't play the "oh, you are negative" card as the organization that is providing your frame of reference is one of the most negative amongst all cults and religions.
OK. Directly Really? If you know this, then why are you asking me? Is that so? I commend people that attend the Catholic Church and any other church for wanting to know what the Bible teaches. Is this not positive enough for you? No. The Bible says that. I follow what that says. Not what you say. Absolutely correct. Ever heard of the "if someone told you to jump off a cliff" scenario? Like wedding anniversaries? Of course I would, just as Jesus did. Didn't notice him attending any birthday parties or New Years Eve Parties or Christmas Parties, did you?? It's amazing there are only two references in the Bible about birthday gatherings. It is interesting that both gatherings ended up with some innocent person being beheaded. Now why would anyone in their right mind want to continue that pagan celebration? Freed? You mean expelled don't you? The Greek scriptures state the congregations must be kept clean. Anyone found not repenting of their behaviour that contravenes the principles in God's laws will be expelled. Very similar to those in the Old Testament that were stoned to death for not obeying God's law "that they knew of and went against it INTENTIONALLY!" Like blood? It's simple. The Bible simply says "abstain from blood". You would do well to read up this on Bloodless Surgery. "What?" You say? An external reference that is not from the Watchtower?? Why shouldn't I play that card? You have been negative since day 1! I think it is interesting you use the term "cult". If you have a read of Wikipedia's great detail of that particular word, you will note that Jehovah's Witnesses don't get a mention at all in that entire page. Haven't you inflicted enough Jehovah's Witnesses bashing for today yet??
It's funny that you should mention the Catholic church and weddings. My sister-in-law married the son of a JW. Her father-in-law dressed up for the wedding but stood outside during the ceremony. The Bible speaks of unity of the brethren, there are denominations that I have issues but as long they have the core doctrines right, I consider them brothers even while they swing from the chandeliers or dress with funny collars. I think I've made the point about the Watchtower denying the power of God's word and his ability to keep a remnant, as you still haven't mentioned any current or historic church in line with the JWs. How about the Christadelphians, you borrowed a lot from them. I don't know the number of deaths tied to the blood policy, I am sure the Watchtower has it, do you? Get me a number to call in Brooklyn and I will call it. I have no problem with bloodless surgery but when it isn't enough I wouldn't idolize any organization enough to sacrifice anyone to such a policy. Look at the scripture in context, is it referring to routine surgical procedure or is it more likely ritual drinking of blood since it is mentioned with along with meat sacrificed to idols. Don't assume everyone who leaves the organization is expelled. I know of a guy who while rising in the ranks at Bethel, started studying the Book of Romans, God spoke to him through his Word unaided by a changing organization and he received the free gift of salvation by grace. He left, they tried to shun him but luckily only his wife was in the organization and she left with him. Saluting the flag or defending the country is not a "if someone told you to jump off a cliff" scenario. What did Jesus say when the soldiers came up to him asking what they should do? He did not say to leave the military, right? If it was up to the Watchtower, I'd be speaking German now and you Japanese but good men and women stood against evil back in the 1940s while JWs stood by and did nothing. I don't recall calling the Jehovah Witness a cult but who would you say is a cult? Are the Mormons?
Why do i need to wite to the watchtower if all this info is available to teh public. I say again show me the names of the committee. I ask this because we both know it is done in secret. Jesus stood in the light and always revealed his word to us. Never in secret. Only reason to keep the names of the committee in secret is to deceive. I see no other reason than that I agree with Tbarr that i also consider anyone that has the same core foundation to be brothers. I actually consider all people my brothers and sisters, but we are talking about christianity. IAM IAM IAM
The core doctrines?? Like "shall not murder"? So that's OK with you is it? So it's OK for you to go to another man's country and kill him because you think you are defending your country and because a man in governemnt says you should do so, all whilst this man is of the same faith as you? How is that unity in the brethren exactly? You have tried to make points but as yet I can't seem to see how those points were clarified. Making assumptions based on hearsay in no way makes a valid point. No. I don't. Why? Because I understand the blood issue completely and it makes sense to me. I know it does not make sense to you. Hence, your disgust showing in your comments. However, that's a decision based on your anlaysis and you are entitled to it. What? You don't have a phone book? Whilst you are there, order me a pizza with olives please! Get my point? The scripture "in context" says to "abstain from blood". So, finally you are starting to actually reason on the scriptures by you using "more likely". It is one of the things God finds "detestable" along with fornication and idolatry. All three (and there are more situations) are as serious as each other and all need pinpoint accuracy to be sure we are found favourably in God's eyes. There are many definitions found for the word "abstain". You might want to read this source. Notice where it says "not to do, take". You see, it pays to do wider reading of these things to get the fuller picture. Especially of something so important. Thank you for putting things in the right place when you speak of these things. Yes, there are some who choose to leave. But also, there are some who are expelled and rightly so. You say "they tried to shun him"? Do you know what is involved in shunning? You don't chase someone up to shun them....LOL If that person happens to be in your vicinity then you don't acknowledge them. But let us not forget the reason why "shunning" happens. These ones refuse to change their ways after they dedicate themselves to God. It's all about repentance. If they showed a repentant attitude, all would be good and they would be forgiven just as God would be forgiven. However, it's not as black and white as you might think. A repeat offender might have to prove their repentant attitude over some time. I know of some who are unfortunately struggling to come to terms with repentance. It's all about humility and being obedient to God. Now, before you go off. Let me also remind you that this does not happen to every person on the earth. It is a procedure in place only for those who have dedicated themselves to God and have turned away from God by gross sin. You mean Matthew 8:5-13 or Luke 7:1-9 where the soldier was asking Jesus about how to go about helping his manservant? What has this got to do about war? You are taking those scriptures out of context. What's wrong with speaking German and Japanese? Did nothing? We made a stand not to fight, even under torture at times and a "lot" were killed because of it. I can't see that as doing nothing. It's scriptural. God himself says "Vengeance is mine. I will repay". In Isaiah 2:1-4 it says "The thing that Isaiah the son of A′moz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.†For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." ermmm...yes you did "Don't play the "oh, you are negative" card as the organization that is providing your frame of reference is one of the most negative amongst all cults and religions." Did you not look up the reference I provided about a "cult"? I have nothing to say about the Mormons. Why should I? They are entitled to their beliefs just the same as you are.
So Cheap SEO Col, are you reporting your time in this forum as part of your door to door requirements? You are not winning converts and are revealing what many people suspect about the Watchtower and it's followers. Do they have poor, uneducated migrant workers in your corner of NSW? You'd be more productive trying to sell the Watchtower story to them, that's the tactic the Watchtower is using here in So Cal, amigo.
Would it bother you if I was? This is true many people suspect about the Watchtower and it's followers. However, those who get off their behinds and actually talk to us find out for themselves there was nothing to be suspicious after all. I am not here to "win converts". They are your words. You can keep them thank you. Yes and plenty of them. Here in Australia we have people of many backgrounds and status. Seems like you don't much about Australia after all? Really? You might think that. However, you will find that not to be the case. That would be your suspicious and negative mind. Try opening up a bit and actually asking the reason why we come knocking on your door and your fellow countrymen's doors? You might be surprised at the answer.
Exactly! Tbarr it is because of your negative mind that you cannot understand that the great battle is going to end in 1914. And if you would drop your pretenses you could clearly see that battle began in 1874. Turn to the watchtower now so that when Abraham, Isaac and Jacob return in 1925 you may be counted among the faithful. Believe! So that you will not be disappointed during the return in 1975.
Do I sense a little sarcasm here? You are bringing up old content here which has been discussed in many other threads. Try sticking to the topic if you can, please?