One thing that I have noticed in this forum is the change of attitude to what American way is. Many people who think of themselves pro-America and patriot support actions and ideology that is clearly fascism. Make no mistake that they will never admit to be a fascist since fascism means Hitler and hating Jews and they hate Hitler and America was great for kicking his butt and they just love Israel, so how can they be fascists? But fascism is not only Hitler or killing Jews, it is an ideology that regulates the relationship between individual and government. 30-40 years ago, no decent American would come out openly and support arrest and imprisonment of individuals without any charge or conviction. No decent American would support torture since this was what Nazi and communist did to their prisoners and not Americans. No American would support the government looking in to every detail of their private life or cry that I am weak and lousy worker and I need the government to protect me from the world who works harder. I am not saying that nothing bad happened before but it was not an ideology that was accepted by main stream Americans. Just look at old movies when the hero is fighting the torturers and today's movies were the hero is the torturer. What happened? Where did the old American way disappeared? Is Fascism the new American way? I for one, miss the old American way.
Unfortunately a lot of what you say is true. A lot of Americans believe that being patriotic means giving up civil liberties to our government. There are still many on the other side, often referred to (ironically) as liberal cowards, who believe the exact opposite.
I wasnt aware of a DIFFERENT American Way.This Torture you talk about,a few individuals not a state.This is another conspiracy thread with the usual ramblings and nonsense.As ive seen before (especially you Gworld) your happy too attack America to get some kind of popularity amongst muslim users here. Sad.
Ive always lived this upkeep of life.Im happy to abide and im proud that my country is doing what it can to eradicate the threat,By as many ways possible.
There has been a change, and it goes even deeper. What America stands for has become words, not action. It's become history or in the words of a Congressional Committee chairperson, anachronistic. The crazy thing is, that so many of the great leaders and men of this world, American and otherwise have told us that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. That freedom (including the right to dissent) is an American absolute. That war is the tool of government. That big government only gets bigger. Instead there is just a lot of empty sniping back and forth, liberal and conservative. Republican and Democrat. Black and white. These battles for ideological, social, racial freedom have already been fought and won. We don't have to keep fighting them, we need to maintain the freedoms already achieved with a supreme diligence. The Fascism is everywhere, but it's most prevalent in the US today. The party lines are blurred, in a country essentially run by only two parties. The ideologies are muddied, new voices and ideas are suppressed and mocked. The sad thing, is people have forgotten that freedom means that you have the right (and responsibility) to govern yourselves. Be it voting, being an activist, being a leader, being smart with your money etc. Being free doesn't mean that government holds the hammer of health care, or social security over you. There is this idea that as long as the rhetoric is FREEDOM, then whoever is shouting it is in charge, and we should trust them implicitly. But FREEDOM is just a word. There is no freedom when the ballot for the most powerful person in the world is a two horse race. And there is no freedom when your security, finances, savings, business, profession are all regulated by government, many times compromised of people who look a lot better than they are qualified to make such enormous decisions.
I think Hitchens would sum up this thread wonderfully: Yep. Petty accusations of fascism are gworld's primary tactic. Then absolving the people who -actually- engage in such behavior comes in the next breath. Glad he can finally realize this.
Fascism is not the American way, you know that. Yes we gotta have some changes but we have some great timeless documents that will correct this all soon. All these problems were foreseen 200+ years ago. I'm getting a bit impatient myself.
Do you mean the document that is referred to by president and the new "pro-America" and "patriots" as an old piece of paper? I don't think that the problem is about now or this administration, there has been a fundamental change in American culture.
Naturally, i know you don't like terrorists being tortured (if it happens) & i know you don't like them being imprisoned nor do you like them being monitored, i also understand that all of this would never happen if the USA were still enjoying the old American way, the thing that really bugs you is that terrorists who wish death to americans don't get treated the old American way so they can't do what they are supposed to do, BIG DEAL!
Your post as usual symbolizes what a moron you are. Do you think that terrorism and spies didn't exist before? USA was involved in wars in both American continent, WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam war and the cold war. They didn't need to call the U.S. Constitution a piece of paper or legalize torture and imprison people without charges to manage those wars, did they?
You make an interesting point gworld. The new America has no history. No history of independence, no history of honorable war. No history of small government and no history of rule of law. It's like someone wiped the slate clean and people have forgotten what made America great and unique in the first place.
cold war wasn't even really a war, so its inclusion in here is silly, don't you agree? Here's ww2 prisoners beind held: http://www.crt.state.la.us/tourism/lawwii/courier_articles/pows.htm UN during Korean War: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner-of-war_camp#U.N._camps Here's a longer list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner-of-war_camp Held without trial until the war's conclusion. Your definition of torture is specious. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4623249.stm
The problem with new American "patriots" is that every time they open their mouth, they put their foot right in it. Here is from you own quote: Compare this with today's secret prisons with no supervision by UN or Red cross and a government that openly suggest prisoners are not protected by any national or international laws and therefore can be tortured. It seems the table is turned, what was shameful for North Koreans, is "patriotic" for Americans of today.
Resorting to name calling so quickly gworld. Not overly surprising, but boring. You must realize how weak your fascist claims are. Maybe you should start with something else. Communist isn't used too often. How about something else? Any more -ists you'd like to throw out there for us. It's all very cute. Red cross actually does visit guantanamo. UN not being involved in this conflict (as opposed to the korean war) so it has no party to the camps. Therefore, their visitation is more a function of desire, isn't it. The UN is perfectly capable of joining us - too bad they are caught debating what a terrorist is and what islamophobia is. Maybe you should help them there. Oh...that's right. You cannot even figure that out for yourself remember? gworld, are you still miffed that terrorists are being treated so harshly: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272492,00.html horrid! shocking! so why does gworld support them. Oh! I understand now! Canada doesn't want their detainee back or is trying to get him out. Maybe gworld should petition his government. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/08/khadrspeaks.html