Today I went swimming with my wife. [pic]

Poetical style does not improve stupid assumption "oppressive" very POV, "fustiness" what makes you think they're stale-smelling? Maybe they are washed everyday and smell of lemon-scented detergent?

Also

- There are such things as fenced women/children-only parks
- There is scholarly difference of opinion on whether the face veiling is compulsory or not
- Veiling is generally compulsory in front of unrelated males only, rural afghan women might work in the field all day and not come across one unrelated male

It's nothing more than the norms of your society, you guys ought get out more and see the world really.

Are you fighting for the right of western women to expose their chests in public? If not, why not? Why do you accept different rules for male and female chests?

 

Here's the difference...
In islamic countries, rapes and abuse goes unreported because, for one reason, most of the 'abuse' is considered legal.
And even if it's not legal, Under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses. Women who allege rape, without the benefit of the act having been witnessed by four men who subsequently develop a conscience, are actually confessing to having sex. If they or the accused happens to be married, then it is considered to be adultery.

We can go round and round all night. I think, or at least I hope, deep down you know what you're saying is bullshit. I honestly hope you're not such an evil man that you believe the shit that you're typing here.

 

Complete untruth, you need four witnesses to prove consensual illicit sexual intercourse, just like you need four witnesses to prove rape. You know what's the rape capitol of the world? It's the Christian Majority nation of South Africa.

 

No, fusty because they entrap exhaled air. Like wearing an air filter over your face all day long. I've done it. It isn't fun.

I have seen these women, here in Chicago, with a full veil over there faces - recently, in fact, with it being about 95+ F outside. She is in an obsidian black gown, several layers, crown of her head, to her toes. One slit for her eyes. The guy is walking in a light cotton casual, I'd call it - short sleeve, breezy, light color. Who is enjoying life?

Why is veiling compulsory under any circumstance? Has a single woman made the decision on its compulsory or elective nature?

Your last point is valid. Personally, I think it's a ridiculous double standard, rooted in religious injunction. But as far as I know, no modern western woman has yet to be caned, hung, or shot for the offense. Further, it goes to common sense, to me. Women in our society cover their breasts, generally, with an, uh, shirt. The same wear as men. They don't have to live in a convection oven to comply with whatever "modesty" code is in place.

Please tell me a simple thing, again, not an anti-Islamic rant, but a simple human question - what possible justification is there for a woman to be in a several layered, heavier gauge (from what I can tell) black robe, with only a slit for her eyes, when it's approaching 100F? This, while the male walks around in his light cotton wear? How can this be considered, in any way, as an elevation of the female to a "jewel" (forgetting for the time being whether the female in question actually wishes "to be elevated to a jewel")?

 

Again, when a muslim country doesn't even value a woman and doesn't even report when a rape has happened, who do you think is going to have a high rate or rape? Probably the countries that actually consider it a crime.

You treat your women like we treat our dogs...actually most of us treat our dogs better.

 

I will, for now, cast aside your childish and condescending behaviour because I am sure that somewhere within you there lies a person willing to be more respectful towards those with whom he disagrees.

Adultery and rape are two different crimes in Islam. I have quoted this excerpt that can be found on islamonline.net.

So the short answer is that you have your facts completely messed up. Be more careful next time.

 

Oh I see. You have a problem with all religions then since:

The following people are required to dress modestly according to religious injunctions.


Nuns.
Priests
Orthodox Priests.
Amish men and women.
Orthodox Jews.

nb. Partial list

What about secular injunctions that define attire and grooming. By this I mean, the police, military, workplaces and schools. Do you have a problem with that too?

 

I've already flatly stated that I have such a problem:

That said, as I said, nuns and priests do so of their own accord; Amish men and women do so as well.* And to my knowledge, though I am sure there is a good deal of social pressure to conform, there exists no physical penalty today (much less, the ultimate penalty of death) for abrogation of the mosaic law, however strictly interpreted, is there?

And commonsense can prevail, as I also said:

Now, are you going to keep playing games, or answer my question, which is, again, in essence, the end of my remark above, or:

I'll ask again. Please have the courage to answer directly, without further sidetracking:

If this question cannot reasonably be answered, then I find great difficulty in moving ahead to a common understanding.

* As I understand it, on reaching majority, Amish children are actually encouraged to go out and "taste the world," to see if they wish to be a part of it, or whether they wish to return to their community, and become, by conscious choice, fully Amish adults.

 

No, that is not true. Nuns and priests have to conform to the dictates of their faith, otherwise they would be contravening the dress code of the church and possibly be rebuked. I think that a Catholic nun who reports for duty dressed in a mini skirt and a tank top will be banished to her quarters, punished with 1 million hail mary's and forced to repent.

http://medroso.blogspot.com/2006/12/dress-code-of-priests.html

I would think that the same rules apply to the Amish and to Orthodox Hasidic Jews.

The punishment for improper dress and shaving the beard is not death but probably a few lashes. USA and China amongst other countries also have the death penalty. I have no problem with Christians and Jews who believe in the death penalty since Islam is a continuation of both these faiths(in it's pure forms) and some of our laws are similiar. I do have a problem with secularists who seem to think that their man made laws are superior to ours when clearly it is not.

In all fairness, your other question was addressed to another FM and I did not read that post, but I am happy to answer you.

There is really no law in Islam that dictates what the thread count of a Muslim Women's hijab should be. Most colours are acceptable, except red I think.

 

You may think "It must be because rapes are not reported in the Muslim world" is a good excuse for the higher rape rate in the west, but actually that assumption is based on pure ignorance. Muslim people are very protective of their mothers, wives, sisters and daughters, Muslim men do not sit back idly if one of their female family members is even teased or sexually harrassed, much less raped.

1- The mesh over a burkha is hardly airtight
2- Again - no need to wear it all day long, only in front of unrelated males
3- Religious women in Muslim lands usually do not work among unrelated males, that chicago incident you mentioned is caused by living in a non-Muslim community which is in itself a disliked state of existence. Also what is there in Chicago to force her to wear a Burkha? It's purely her own choice.

As for the question of why the face veil at all? The answer is that humans are slaves of the Allmighty God, and the Master may order the slave whatever He wishes, His will is not to be questioned.

Has the question of whether the face veil is mandatory or not been decided upon exclusively by bunch of men? No. Islamic history is full of female scholars. The greatest of whom, without doubt is Sayyidah Ayeshah, the Prophet's wife, from whom, scholars say, a half of the religion has been transmitted.

 

Good point.

On the one hand we are accused of being overly protective of our women and not allowing them to walk the streets freely. Then they alleging that the rate of rapes in Muslim countries is low because it is unreported.

If Muslim women are kept off the streets then where are they getting raped and by who?

 

AGAIN. A nun or priest enters the clerical life willingly. As does an Amish adult. As does an orthodox jew, at least to the extent that physical punishment - to the point of death - is not practiced.

A girl born into a family with the tradition is forced to wear the burkha, etc., and the penalty for abrogating such a practice is grave - as we know. You honestly cannot see the distinction?

Your other points simply failed to address the points I raised, so I won't proceed, unless you'd care to read and respond accordingly.

 

There are only three crimes punishable by death in the Shari'ah; murder, illicit sexual intercourse by married man or woman who has consummated his/her marraige and apostacy.

There is no prescribed punishment for not veiling, governments may choose to fine the offender or give her a couple of lashes, whatever works best.

 

And I will not proceed unless you stop rephrasing your sentences to get you out of the tight spot that you are in.

You said in an earlier post.

and now you are saying

This is so wrong of you to do this.

Why are you even discussing the death penalty. This thread is about dress code and and Islam does not prescribe the death penalty if a man or women dresses immodestly.

 

Sigh. One by one.

That wasn't what I said. Neither is an air filter-mask. But it still sucks. As I said.

-and, relatedly -

What I have seen in Chicago. Her choice? 100F, black tent over her body, her mouth not open to breathe the air freely? So, in reality, basically, in Chicago, what I have witnessed indicates the choice is: stay home, with a relative; or go out, with a heavy set of black clothing with a slit over your eyes in 100F. Nice options, seems to me. Elsewhere, from what I have seen, muslim women wearing the burkha don't work. It is prohibited. That women getting caned, in the picture I posted above. You suppose she was one of those "religious women in Muslim lands who usually do not work among unrelated males," as she sure seems to be wearing a burkha to me, yet she is still getting her ass kicked by a brave fella. What do you suppose the "disliked state of existence" is here?

We have no common ground here, since I'm an atheist. I don't care about religious faith - don't care, and don't condemn - so long as it doesn't oppress the life of a human being here and now; hence the rub. The above paragraph is simply not on my radar. And, I'd say, a convenient way for most religions throughout history to justify an abominable evil here and now.

I'm interested in now. How many women in fundamentalist Islamic societies now come forward to defend the wearing of the burkha? Of caning, hanging, shooting, stoning for the "crimes" supposedly warranting said punishments?

 

Hamba, is this a language problem? You are aware, are you not, that "enters of their own accord" and "enters willingly" is the same thing. Hence, "again." And now, "again." Do you understand this?

Regarding penalties, I am sorry - I am aware that death is reserved for such high crimes as apostasy (changing your mind on religious matters), sex outside marriage, and so forth. My understanding is that acid in the face of a woman who wants to get a bit of sun on her face is a preferred punishment in many societies imposing the burkha.

 

I cannot remark on why the women was getting caned in public since I do not have any background information about the incident. Since she is wearing the Burka, so it was for a different reason. I am not sure if this type of summary justice is allowed in Islam as we have established court system to which all crimes must be referred to for a proper hearing. This seems to be an isolated incident and could even be someone working for the west in an attempt to discredit the Taliban.

Have you any pictures of men getting punished or are you only focusing on "Muslim women oppression for now? You might want to search the internet. There are loads of videos of men getting their heads chopped off.

 

Arghhh. You are impossible. You are drowning in your own vomit.

What beats me is that you thought that you will get away with your nonsense. Pathetic attempt really.

Anyway, I will not dignify you with a further response.

 

Not if you get used to it.

What forced her then? Other than her own religious convictions? Have the Taliban taken over Chicago?

Hard to tell from a picture. There are crimes other than not veiling ya know.

Heaps, my own father follows the position that the veiling of the face is not mandatory, but my mother advanced in her religious studies and came to follow the position that the face veil is mandatory. As for the laws against fornication and adultery, there is nothing specific to women in them. BTW the link in my sig is the website of Shaykhah Aisha Bewley, one of the greatest Islamic scholars living in the west.

 

i'm not even going to continue to read this dribble.
women in Muslim countries are treated like a stray dog.
god forbid one of them falls for the wrong male:

www.american-builder.com/stoning.htm


try this shit over here and see how fast you end up on the receiving end.