World's perception of the US as the superpower

We touched on this in another thread, but I believe it's an important topic... Anyone else care to weigh in?

How do you think the conflict in Iraq is going to change the world's view of the US as the superpower? Do you think it would be better to leave the conflict now or stay the course?


Personally, I believe that it's having a horrible effect on the US... The world is seeing that we're trying harder and harder (surge), and we cannot even quell the violence in a 3rd world country... I believe the longer we stay in Iraq, without ending the violence, the less respect we will receive from the rest of the world...

And, if you'll allow me to follow a slippery slope for a second, the lack of respect might lead to other countries (china?) attempting to start bullying us (through economic means first, then political, then possibly militarily?)...

 

I agree with you, it is horrible.

This war should have already been done and complete. Technically, it could have been. I'll leave you with some quotes from General Patton, arguably the best commander of any military to ever exist on the face of the earth.

"Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more. "

"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn't give a hoot and hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor ever lose a war. " (Sadly, this is no longer true, but it would be if we still had leaders like Patton)

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

 

Tarpon, I think that's true.

I am recalling now reading Charles Krauthammer's views on Unilateralism many moons ago, beginning when the President's pre-emptive doctrine was flush with its first strokes. As he developed his argument, Krauthammer wrote, in so many words, that we were the world's first truly global hegemon. I thought it was a wrongly conceived theory then, and I am even more certain now.

I think you are quite right - we have demonstrated the thinness of our line, not the absoluteness of our imperial power.

 

Its obvious that Bush is trying so hard to land his name on something good. Nobody likes the government, not even people in America.

 

It's a fine line between being the world's most powerful ally and being known as a country that invades and colonizes.

Personally, I am of the opinion that America's greatest weapons are it's democracy, it's economy and it's spirit.

It's too bad that Bush didn't get Congress to authorize War so he would have had the full powers (with less controversy) to pursue absolute victory. I'm not saying that invading Iraq was just, but if popular support and the law were behind it, this thing may have already been over.

What's holding us back now is not Al Queda or the size of the surge. It's the lack of clear victory conditions and a defined exit strategy. We can't win a war if we don't know exactly and precisely what victory is.

 

Leave now. All military out. Provide as much financial support as possible, for a short period. get Bush the F out, and vow to never ever let this happen again.

Have a total political revolution. Elect only small government constitutionalist, secure the borders, get tough on terrorists at home.

ugggh...I'm so sick of it all.

 

Yes it has.

Firstly America is seen as a bit 'stupid'. It's allowed itself to be sucked into a war where it's no longer playing to its strengths. The US would have won easily if you'd fought the war on your terms - use your undoubted technological superiority to smash the place up and then go home. Hell, even we (the British) could probably have managed that.

Now we find ourselves fighting a war where we're static (in bases). The enemy know where we are and they know exactly what we're doing at all times. We're now fighting the war on their terms; whether we're 'winning' or 'losing' the fact that we're still fighting means the enemy, for all the billions of dollars and thousands of lives thrown at it haven't been defeated yet.

To keep this thread on-topic I won't go into the rights and wrongs of the war and/or the way it's being fought - but America is now seen as beatable. This was already suspected after Serbia and Somalia but is now a fact. For all its technological prowess the US has a fatal weakspot - casualties. Tie the Americans down, kill and maim enough of them and the pressure at home becomes so great that they give up. That's the thinking anyway.

Also I don't think you realise, even among pro-Americans such as myself, how much damage things like Guantanamo Bay and 'Extraoridinary Rendidtion' has done to America's reputation in the 'non-terrorist' world. I'm sure Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, hell probably even Nixon, are looking down at George W Bush with contempt and disgust.

So yes, the world's view of America has changed - and not for the better.

 

It has hurt us. I am American, I am "pro-American," and I DO care about how the rest of the world feels about us. I don't like pretending to be Canadian when I'm outside of this country. There was a time when other countries liked and respected the United States. Now we seem to be stuck with this "I don't give a damn how the rest of the world feels" mentality, and I think that stinks. Many of us have to travel abroad, and we don't get the same security forces surrounding us as the president or other American diplomats.

This war was a mistake, plain and simple. I don't know what the solution is, because either way it's bad for our country.

 

I'm surprised (well, not really) someone would even start a self-loathing thread like this.

People have always hated America. The difference in the last 10-12 years is the internet. Think about it. How many of "us" (term used loosely so as not to associate myself with some of this self-loathing gloom, despair and agony) sat around 10-12 years ago saying "boo hoo, some people might not like America?"

The internet has been a huge factor in enabling people to spread propaganda, ban together for causes, etc. Nothing has changed. It's just that people now have an outlet to view what was always there before.

 

It seems you mistakenly believe that you are America.

 

why would people always hate america? do you have any sources to proove it or is it just opinion?

 

I think GTechs problem (amongst a lot of other things) is that he equates peoples hatred of the corrupt US Administration with a hatred of the American people, a claim that (like a lot of his claims) is wholly wrong.

It's not the American people that are hated GTech, it's the idiots in charge of America that are ruining the world that are hated.

 

There has always been anti-American feeling it's true. In Britain this fell into two camps. On the Right you had the 'Empire Loyalists' for want of a better world who never forgave the US for becoming a World Power. "WE used to be rich and powerful," you can hear them muttering into their gin and tonics, "WE used to throw our weight around, invade other countries on the flimsiest of pretexes and force our cultural values on them. It's not fair." And on the Left of course you had the Communist sympathisers who never forgave the American-led West for winning the Cold War.

But now you do have, as I mentioned earlier, friends abroad who don't like the path America is on. But as has been mentioned by others, it's the Bush Administration we hold in contempt, NOT America itself. But some of the the shine has come off.

PS - The French hate you because you speak English and make dreadful movies.

 

the US puts out some shitty movies, but france's movies really suck. I am a movie fanatic and I have given up french movies

 

We're not discussing people that hate America; instead the effect the Iraq conflict is having on our world perception... Actually, you're the one that brought it up in the first place (in this thread:

Well, GTech, let's discuss the "repercussions of calling for defeat" (or, I prefer, withdrawal)...

Remember when I used the analogy (about withdrawal vs staying the course):

Which would you do GTech?

Don't you agree that with this "surge", we've shown the world we're actually putting quite a bit of effort into this conflict, and are unable to quell the violence in a 3rd world country? Don't you think other developing nations (china?) are taking note of this?

 

Do you believe that perception is hatred, or not? Seems like there is clear parallel here.

This is a flawed analogy. Why does it need an analogy in the first place? Do you want defeat, or a victory?

No, I do not agree at all. I believe that some are putting aside their normal partisan stances on this very important issue and realizing that it is succeeding. That seems to be what has been reported in the past few weeks.

Further, when Democrat Harry Reid stood up before American and proclaimed a defeat on behalf of America, it's actions like those that I believe other countries pay attention to. They pay attention to the defeatism infested in the democrat party. All they need do is wait for a democrat to be elected. They know they will do nothing to protect America.

I say again...people in other countries have always hated America. We see it more prevalent today with the oncoming of the internet, where people can openly share opinions/beliefs about things that just could not be done 10-12 years ago. Right now, it's popular to hate America. Will you stand up for her, or will you join the popularity contest?

 

I want less dead American soldiers; you?


Back to the topic... Ignore the analogy... Don't you agree that by leaving our troops in Iraq (a 3rd world country), unable to quell the violence, we are showing the world that we are not as powerful as we made ourselves out to be? Don't you think other countries (china?) are noticing this, and planning accordingly?

I honestly believe ignoring our world perception, we are allowing for a huge national security crisis in the future...

 

We both want this. To what level you go to achieve this? I believe that's our difference.

Not at all. I simply do not agree to this. One, there seems to be some non-partisan agreement that the surge is working. Remember, democrats had been calling for more troops for some time now. Bush finally gave them what they wanted, but then democrats didn't want to wait and see if it would work.

We are a powerful nation. Remember, you and others were there to help lesson civilian casualties. If the US wanted, we could just as easily drop one bomb and it would be over. Never underestimate our power. I believe what this war will show is that putting troops in harms way to avoid civilian casualties, as opposed to just wiping a place clean, might not always be a good option.

Other countries know what we are capable of.

I honestly believe that letting the world dictate what we do and do not do, is not freedom. We don't need a permission slip from others to take care of business.

Do you believe democrats like Harry Reid should stand up an claim defeat for what you did in Iraq? I ask, because apparently you didn't have any comment about him doing so.

 

You have no idea how much of a knobhead that statement makes you sound do you GTech?

 

I want this to be our top priority... Do you honestly believe that we are going to leave our countries there long enough to quell the sectarian violence? If not, then why let any more troops die?

The surge is working? That's why this month was host to the deadliest attack in iraq? (verify)

I thought you just said that we were there to "help lesson civilian casualties"? If we drop a bomb, we don't succeed...

So, as you put it, our mission is to "help lesson civilian casualties" (even though this goes against bush's claim that "the main reason we went into iraq, at the time, was we thought he had weapons of mass destruction") ... So by showing the world that we cannot "help lesson civilian casualties", and by attempting we are losing US soldiers; You don't believe this will have any negative impact in the future?

Yes, and now they know if they want to kill Americans, they can do so through an Iraq-type insurgency...

We shouldn't let the world dictate our governments actions, we should let the US people... Whatever happened to "by the people, for the people"?

Post a link to his quote, I'd be interested in seeing his usage of the term "defeat"...