I'm pretty sure they would disagree with you if you told them they weren't actually christians. But we are back to the "no true scotsman" fallacy again. Do you know that a fallacy makes your argument completely redundent?
Go away and learn about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, then you will know what it means to be a disciple of Jesus and a Christian and why not all claiming to be Christian are really such. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform manymiracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" (Matthew 7:21-23). When you've done that come back. In your dreams!
Im not saying they are good christians, But they are certainly christians. See the things is, You don't get to decide who gets in. You seem to think that you are the one they have to convince in order to join your "club for the mentally ill".
@Grandad If you mandate that all Christians must follow the teachings of Christ, I doubt there will be many left.
I haven't got the time to go over it all again with you - like I said go and learn about the life and teachings of Jesus, then you will be in a position to understand what makes a Christian, rather than just throw verbal abuse at anyone who doesn't share your limited view. I don't decide who 'gets in' and neither does any human, judgment has been given to Jesus Christ and he and God decide, thankfully. I don't mandate, God does, otherwise sad but true. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13,14)
What a very Christian thing to say! You tell him to "go away and learn" but then go on to compare yourself to a disciple. I'm just guessing here, but wouldn't the Christian thing to do here be to teach this poor heathen in order to save his soul? You're confused on many levels and your consistent use of those ridiculous quotes is the proof. I'd take a few minutes for some personal reflection as opposed to running your mouth to those who've already got the first part figured out if I were you.
In order to be taught one must be 'teachable' and incidently I have never made any comparisons of myself here on this forum. Old but definitely not confused ... you may view the scriptures as "those ridiculous quotes" thats your privilege.
What grandad likes to do is make it up as he goes along. He likes to say who gets to be a christian at the same time as declaring that it isn't he who gets to decide. It's obvious that nobody can follow the bible completely, Hell, Even eating shrimp is on par with homosexuality according to god (both are referred to as an abomination). So i'd like grandad to tell us what level of christianness is required to be a "real christian" and where in the bible it mentions it.
Christians including Granddad are not the ones that make up stuff as they go along. I am sure he searches the scriptures for truth whilst those that are opposing him are making up stuff or regurgitating what there teachers told them. Read a bit more of the Bible and the shrimp thing will be clear. BTW I just finished some fettucini with shrimp and it was clean per the new covenant. While you are doing that research look up where the following are found in the Bible: The fool has said in his heart there is no God. As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool does to his folly.
I love this circular logic used by the mentally ill, I mean religious. So to prove god exists you are going to quote the bible? I have a cat who wouldn't even use such infantile logic as that.
And how to define a fool? Foolishness is worshiping something that no one has ever seen. Certainly you can claim you felt the presence of god in your heart. but have you seen the God? Can you present a proof that god exists other than quoting religious books, or opinions, or your beliefs? Any tangible proof??
Do you think it is possible for God to exist without tangible proof? Or does the lack of tangible proof disprove the notion of God absolutely?
"Knowledge begins with respect for the Lord, but fools hate wisdom and discipline." (Proverbs 1:7) Ever seen the wind? Electricity? No, but do you disbelieve? You see the effects of wind and electricity, I see the effects of God. No man has seen God at any time, its no more possible than standing face to face with the sun. Can you present any tangible proof that God doesn't exist?
Faith is not wisdom and unquestioning obedience to something which can't be substantiated isn't discipline either. The existence of wind & electricity can be proven. (Try putting your finger inside a plug-point in the wall & flick the switch on) God's existence can not. Burden of proof always rests on the person who claims the existence of something.
Circular logic. I think you people should be banned from quoting scripture as "evidence" for your illconcieved childish fantasies. Wind and lightning can be tested. They can be subject to experiments and evidence can be collected that proves they exist. The same can't be said for your god. In fact, As science progresses we are seeing more and more things that can be contributed to god being explained with theories and science. And i think this is what frightens you people. Every day you see your doctrine and superstition being explained away very simply and elegantly by science. This is why you people want us to be dumbed down. You want our children to be taught creation myths in schools and you want adults to chant monotonously in church. Thinking isn't the friend of religion, Blind obedience is. It's impossible to prove that anything doesn't exist. proving nonexistence isn't possible. But we could use the same logic to give credibility to the claim that around pluto is orbiting a family of purple elephants. You can't prove that this statement is untrue, it doesn't go any way to making you think it's possible, Let alone likely or true (it shouldn't make you believe it, But honestly, Who knows what lunacy you people are willing to believe).
So Renie is an automatom? It appears that you think Jehovah's Witnesses can't think for themselves. The implication of your words is that we are 'trained' to speak in a certain way that may be at odds with our 'real' thoughts' (a type of brainwashing). I can see how this view would be held and for much of my life held similar views. The circular,contradictory, amorphous, often completely illogical thought processes that often get expressed on this forum were once similar to mine. Let me ask you a question (or two). When Jesus' disciples recorded the gospels and the letters to the various congregations that make up the 'new' testament, whose thoughts were they expressing? Who trained them to speak? how were they united in thought and deed? Why did they not all express their own ideas about the nature of Christ, their heavenly father, the hope for the future, ad infinitum? Is it because they knew the truth? When something is true, no matter what your opinion, the truth doesn't change. Which is why those poor unfortunate victims of our justice system who are wrongfully punished, NEVER change their stories! Which historic Christianity are you referring to? The one formulated at the Council of Nicea under the pagan emperor Constantine? The one that continues to enforce beliefs in the trinity, immortality of the soul, hellfire, purgatory, priesthood, Marian worship, ritual prayers and ceremonies, the one which corrupted most of Christ's teachings by circa 300 AD? or the historic Christianity that is found in the Bible, any Bible. We all need guidance to learn about pretty much anything. Do doctors become doctors by themselves?
stOx, You have to be blind or dishonest with yourself or a fool not to see design in nature. I started my career as an engineer involved with robotics. I know how much it took to make a simple end effector to pick up a valve stem and how precisely I need to place a cylinder head so the robot could place the valve stem in place. It was around this time that my salvation occurred and I started to marvel at the design of the end effectors that I now use to type out this note. If I cut this end effector it will bleed, heal, fight off infection, and be ready to heal again if cut again. If I take it out in the sun it tries to protect itself from rays we just found out were harmful by turning my skin darker (bonus question: Why don't we turn lighter to reflect the light?). Rather than wear out over a decade or two it replaces each cell every seven years but in high wear areas cells are replaced fast enough to require manicures. The end effector I call my hand can cordinate with a multi axis arm to do things like circular and linear interpolation. It can sense heat, cold, air flow, pain, movement, position, moisture, texture and a number of other physical features. The end effector coordinates very well with my two eyes (gee, how did I end up with two, random chance must have know the advantages of two over one) and adjusts well as sight diminishes over time. The end effectors randomly produced design incredibly passed itself onto my children and I marvel at how precisely matched they are. Those industrial robots last maybe 10 years and don't reproduce, don't heal, don't have nearly the sense and abilities we have and they have 10,000s of hours in design in them. Yet the hand that pushes the button to power them up had no designer? I'd be a fool to believe that.
So Jehovah's Witnesses are the "good" Christians then? Are you're doing is contributing to the most ridiculous argument ever conducted: whose beliefs are better. Don't you realize how typical you sound? Oh I used to be lost too, I was just like you. Then I find Jesus and he saved me and blah blah blah. Give me a break; you all sound exactly alike. The condescending tone and down-talking, the complete and utter insanity in the face of abundant reason... With all of the contempt that your foolish religion breeds in you, I've got a better chance of getting into your heaven then you do - and I feel sick and distraught at the very idea of your "god"
You seem to forget one important and vital piece of information. st0x does not want to listen. Not only does he not want to listen, he refuses to research anything at all related to the Bible, or any outside references that discuss the Bible. I have asked him multitudes of times to do this and actually given good sources to go seek and learn. He simply does not want to. Instead, he focusses on attacking, attacking and what's the other thing??......attacking. Put it this way. If you have clear evidence that a person, or an organization is crooked in its dealings, and such evidence were presented, then fair enough, that person or organization will be exposed. st0x has claimed that I and the organization I belong to, tell lies to people and take their money from them. Go read his posts. You should find it quite ridiculous and amusing. No amount of asking him to provide evidence will ever produce it. Simply because it does not exist. The point I am making here is st0x does not want to learn about God. He believes God does not exist. Point blank. I say "fair enough". That's his decision and he is entitled to that decision. But don't ever say Grandad, myself or any other Witness he has dealt with has not bent over backwards to help st0x learn the truth of these things. That would be just plain wrong and unfair. Going through my posts, Grandads posts will show we both have tried very hard to be kind, inviting and peaceable to this DP member. His responses to this have been quite rude, arrogant, defamatory and outright nasty at times. Hence, when put into perspective, asking him to "go away and learn" is not at all pushing him away. It's saying "you think you know it all, but really, you need to know more before making statements like you are". Regards, Col