This has already been discussed, either in this thread earlier or in another thread, and I am pretty sure it was you that asked the very same question. How can a book "allow" an act? That part of the Bible that talks about these things is a history lesson for all of us. You can't take "bits" out of context. Well, that just proves you don't know me at all, or the people I worship the True God with. However, that is your opinion. Millions of people are finding out the truth about us and what our message is every day. These people, like you, had false and misleading information about us too. However, that has not stopped them from learning the truth of these things, nor will it stop millions more. Why? Because it is the "truth". No matter what spin you or anyone else puts on us. Stox, this discussion is going nowhere because you just don't want to know and I am fed up with your false accusations. This is the last time I will respond to your posts. I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for. Regards, Col
I don't see how you can take killing children "out of context". What context would make it ok? Either the bits about killing children is the word of god or it isn't. That's all you can do really... Considering i have backed you in to a corner where you only two choices are either to admit the bible isn't the word of god or to support the killing of children in the name of god. Bye bye, It was fun owning you, Repeatedly,.....
If a scientist makes an incorrect case, it'll be detected by other scientists using the scientific method. That's one of the great strengths of the scientific method. Lawyers who aren't also trained scientists usually don't understand that. Phillip Johnson is no exception. Consensus agreement is as good as you get in science, and it doesn't seem to bother you for areas of science that don't conflict with your theology. So are you saying that children should be taught every dissenting opinion of every tiny minority on every scientific subject? They should be taught that atoms exist except that they might not and that the Earth goes round the Sun except that it might not and that physical geology can be explained by continental drift except that it might not be and that AIDS is caused by a virus except that it might not be? American schoolkids are already among the worst in the western world at science. Do you want them to be worse than most of the third world as well? Circles are flat, spheres are not. It does make a difference. Experience with what works. On the other hand, you have Christians who say that your reading of scripture is the distorted one. Throughout history there have been groups of people flat-out claiming that other groups of people have got it wrong while simultaneously claiming that it's dead obvious what the Bible actually means. . I mean that if God said he'd done his creating in one way (in a few days six thousand years ago with all "kinds" - whatever they are - created separately) while created a universe clearly showing that he'd created it in a completely different way (billions of years old, our solar system not being as old as most of the universe, geological features forming over millennia rather than decades or even weeks, life evolving over deep time, etc), then God is either being deceptive or playing a massive joke. God didn't need to create the sort of universe that has laws of nature allowing humans to investigate how the universe works. But you're saying that not only did he do that, but he did it in such a way that the results of those investigations, in just about every respect, run contrary to the description in Genesis. It isn't all that long ago that Americans were using the Bible to justify slavery. And then to justify racial discrimiation. Some Americans are using the Bible today to discriminate against gays. It seems like an infinitely flexible document.
Sure they can be reconciled. It doesn't say HOW God created the heavens and the earth. If you're saying that the account in scripture is wrong, then you're apparently rejecting physical mechanisms like accretion for the formation of solar systems? If "God created the heavens and the earth" was a sufficient explanation for how the universe and the solar system came about, we might as well shut down the entire disciplines of astrophysics and planetary astronomy. And this goes back to what we were discussing the other day - the way fundamentalist Christianity shuts off intellectual enquiry. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" is a perfect antidote to the questioning mind. This is where it might be useful to define "kind" in physical (as opposed to scriptural) terms so we know exactly what God is claimed to have done. Hardly any of the sciences can be squared with the biblical account of creation. In order to accept the biblical account of creation, you have to reject the scientific method entirely. Cosmology, astrophysics, geophysics, geology, sesmology, palaeontology, biochemistry, genetics, evolutionary biology, ecology, and probably quite a few that I'm missing are all wrong if the Bible is to be taken literally. In other words, science itself is worthless. Yet it very obviously isn't. Interesting, that.
Lol! No. I met a person who has just been to the mosque and got this answer when he asked the people in charge of the mosque. He told and showed me TONS of miracles. But I don't like to discuss them because you would make fun of them like you just did. Compared the mosque to your bathroom. But I would quote just one more. Last Thursday, my driver went to his friend's house. That man told him to take his child to the market to buy a packet of biscuits. He was about three years old and suffering from Down's Syndrome. When the driver took him, that child held his finger and took him to a far away mosque. He made signs telling him to do ablution, wear a prayer cap and sit in the first row. Just then, the man in charge of the mosque came and made the call for prayer. The child made signs telling him to pray and the driver prayed in the gathering as the child stood before him. When the prayer was over, the child held his finger, went to the shop to buy his biscuits and went back home. Just to remind you, that child was suffering from Down's Syndrome, he was about 3 years old and my driver did not use pray before that. Once again, please ignore instead of making fun of it.
In most of these discussions you cannot take quotes out of books as the fact of you discussion. for example Columbus discovered America, a complete joke, too many other were in america before he arrived. So give facts not quotes. Cheers
Question for the religious: You don't believe in evolution because according to you it can't be "proven"/seen. So why do you believe in the bible? How do you know that it is the word of god, and that it's teachings are authentic?
I am certain I have already answered this. I am not going to repeat myself. See my prior posts. I know there is a lot of them, but hey, the answers to your questions (in my case anyway) are there. Col
IMO leaving it to scientists to put right any misconceptions is frankly not the best way to resolve them, it may work and it may not due to self interest. Whilst many, maybe even most, support evolution there are those who do not and this coupled with the views of other eminent scholars in other fields makes for a balanced discussion of the available evidence. I say again, not all eminent scholars take the view that evolution is proven fact, because it isn't. 'Consensus agreement' certainly isn't good enough to challenge God IMO and I don't know what you mean when you say, "it doesn't seem to bother you for areas of science that don't conflict with your theology". I am happy with proven scientific data but there is much in science that is speculative and I do not accept that in preference to God's Word. I don't think that I am saying that every dissenting thought should be taught, however IMO something as important as belief in God should be taught to allow children to see both sides of the issue and have the opportunity to make judgments for themselves. I am not from the US but I confess when I listen to some US children even speaking I feel a depth of concern for them and no I do not believe that they should not be taught science. Science is an important factor of life that should be understood and in many instances be acted upon, but IMO it should be be a forced replacement for the Word of God. I think you are being a bit picky bearing in mind the time period that we are talking about and the general concensus of man concerning the earth and the little known universe of the time. Way, way after that mariners thought that the horizon was the end of the earth and that sailing pst it they would drop off into oblivion. I agree wholeheartedly, that is where we arrive at 'religion' and its divisive nature; true Christianity however is not divisive, it encourages love of neighbour as well as love of God and promotes unity under the leadership of Christ Jesus whilst looking forward to the fulfillment of the 'Lord's Prayer'. God does not tell us when the Universe was created neither does he tell us when the earth was created just, "In the begining God created the heavens and the earth". It is the creation of life that God gives us information on and that was, according to the bible, carried out by Him in a strict order over a set time period. The bible can be as flexible as you want it to be, you can use or misuse it just as with many other things. Forced slavery cannot be justified, however under the Mosaic Law a person had the opportunity to sell him or herself into slavery. However the Mosaic Law set out specific provisions as to how well the 'Master' must care for the 'slave', punishment under the law awaited those who abused their slaves. Similar arrangements were made for other poor who needed help, the farmer could not harvest to the edge of his field or return for produce he had forgetten to collect ... all of this was to be left for the poor to 'glean' giving them food and a sense of dignity. The bible does not discriminate against race but rather shows that God-fearing men and women from all races are acceptable to God, he is not partial. As for homosexuality, the bible has specific laws on such activity and shows exactly and unambiguously how God feels about it and how He dealt with it in the past. As for worshippers of God and their response to people that do things that God expresses are sins, the worshipper of God is admonished to hate the bad thing, not the person and where possible to help them to turn to God.
Guyz...Well Some may agree and some may oppose. but those who disagree with the following are letting themselves in difficulties... My Dear Fellows.. Have you Ever thought that why we are sent to this Earth? Who sent us? and wat are we here for ? This Life is Mortal and in this short span of life we have to prepare ourselves for the Life After Death. A person when dies and is being buried beneath soil, his Life which wil be Eternal , gets started. The bad things , The bad words , the way he lived his life. Each and Everything will start Justifying from the moment he is buried. My Dear brothers and Sisters! this message is just for you, just for ur betterness. Please choose the right path and select the right religion for yourself. and that Only Religion through which u can get eternal success is ISLAM. ISLAM gives us the lesson of PEACE, BROTHERHOOD, HARMONY. Many people misunderstood bout this religion that TALIBAN and TERRORIST stuff etc which all is just shit.. On the day of judgment every person wil be responsible and wil have to pay for watever he did wrong whether he is a terrorist or wat ever.. But those people wil b in peace and harmony who believe in Allah, has faith in his messengers, pray 5 times a day, Reads Quran daily, never hurted anyone, never said a lie, never killed anyone, never said anything wrong...A Person has to Follow ISLAM if he wants to be in peace for the LIFE WHICH WIL BE FOREVER. Please think for yourself. because YOU are the one who will be responsible for watever you do, you are, you chose, you did.. MAY Allah guide the right path and makes your eyes open before ITS TOO LATE.SEE THE SUDDEN DEATH VIDEO . Understand the right meaning of Life ! God Bless You.
I of course appreciate the concern you have this shows that you are a caring person however for me I cannot be persuaded that there is a god just like you probably cannot be persuaded that there is not god. However thank you anyway.
What do you mean...you don't believe in Santa!! Let me help convince you. First of all, good people believe in Santa Claus. Nice people. Don't you want to be good and nice? Why do you want to be cynical? Could Satan be covering your eyes from the truth? Look, Santa has a history. Saint Nicholas was a living, breathing human being. He was written about. I can supply you with actual quotes and commentary if you'd like. In addition, there were innumerable eyewitnesses. We KNOW Santa brought presents. This is a FACT. It's not in doubt. We KNOW that even the church recognizes this individual! We KNOW he did good deeds. You can't possibly doubt this. Now, here's the tricky part: After Santa died, he rose again and now lives at the North Pole, where he is immortal. Every year he brings presents. Every single year. Or, well...he did at first. At first, people would wake up, and...there would be the presents! Why? Because they BELIEVED. Then people began to doubt. And you know what happened when they doubted? Santa stopped coming. And so today, we have to give each other presents instead. We do this over and over and over again and have, for hundreds of years, and will for a thousand years, or maybe even two thousand, or more...to show Santa our faith. If we hang in there long enough with it, Santa will come back and will give us the presents. But guess what--people who DON'T believe will not only NOT get presents...but they will be thrown into a huge pit of fire. All day, every day. For eternity. Santa loves you! But if you don't believe in Santa he will kill you daily (figure that one out). He will turn his face away and party and keep playing with all the presents in the Place Where the Believers Went. But for you? You'll be screaming, begging and on fire but he'll just refuse to acknowledge you. Too bad! You should have believed. Oh WHY didn't you just believe... Okay. Now do you believe in Santa? Why not? I'll bet it's for cynical reasons. You've never seen Santa. You don't believe he rose and went to the North Pole because that can't be proven. You know what? None of that stuff is IMPROBABLE or anything...the reason you doubt is either because Satan has taken up residence inside you, or, well, you're just stubborn. You're CHOOSING not to believe. Because you're basically a nasty person. And because deep down...you hate Santa. Admit it, you know you do. Okay...does this sort of story sound like bull to you? It sounds like bull to us atheists, too. I feel sorry for all of you, who have never felt Santa's great love. There is no love greater than that of Santa, well I mean, for people he isn't destroying and throwing into a pit of fire for eternity. I think you're AFRAID of that love. I think that's why you so deliberately reject such a sweet soul. I mean how could you? Have you ever seen a picture of Santa? He's so cute. Only a hideous Satan-influenced creep could possibly not love this man. Because when he's being nice (and not throwing people into fire) he is the MOST loving thing, ever. Santa said: Bring all the little children to me; and forbid their stockings not. Why do you think he said that? Because children are gullible and will believe anything? NO, of course not...there's your cynicism again! It's because children's hearts are wide-open. Verily I tell you all, until the day you reverse in time and go back to believing in Santa as literally as you did when you were four, you will remain in earth's limbo, waiting to be judged and thrown into fire.
Depends what aspect you are specifically discussing; my belief is that God created the heavens and the earth, just as it says in the bible. How he created it the bible doesn't say but it does say He was the cause. I don't know how He created it and I am prepared to listen to what other say as to how He might have done it but I would not entertain an explanation that left God out as the Creator. It may come over that way but it isn't the case; there is a difference between on the one hand wondering how God did something and on the other hand questioning whether or not He did it! For example I might mull over how God transferred the spirit life of Jesus to the womb of Mary, how it affected her and various other matters about the birth and early years of Jesus but what I don't do it question whether God did that, I know He did. The bible does not give specific information about this and to speculate would be just that, speculation. However it gives us some detail, for example it talks of creating "plants and trees" it says, "every winged bird according to its kind" and "livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind" ... so from that we can see it differentiates between "livestock" and "wild animals". You may come to the conclusion that science is worthless as a result of your claims, but I do not see it that way at all. Creation is not unscientific, it just challenges the ability to 'think outside of the box' in some areas and to view scientific claims with a more critical eye. There are many things in the bible that cannot be easily explained and there are two types of approach from persons who examine it. On the one hand there is the type that says something goes against human logic and therefore cannot be true ... maybe what I mentioned above about the virgin birth of Jesus ... that person will either dismiss the account entirely and pick up another book, or substitute human logic and say Mary must have had an affair and did a really clever job of hushing it up. On the other hand there is the one who has faith, he knows that God does not lie, (He has no need to), he knows from prophecy and the Mosaic Law that Jesus sacrifice would only be valid if he was perfect/sinless. He knows that all mankind are sinners/imperfect so he knows that Jesus could not have been just a normal baby ... if he had been, the sacrifice would have been worthless. This one doesn't fully understand how God did what He did but he knows that it fits everything that he knows about God and His expressed Word so he exercises faith and does not doubt. Now that is not blind faith, he has learned about God and His dealings with mankind and he has examined scripture and prophecy about the Messiah, as a result of that enquiring mind he benefits by drawing closer to God ... the other guy is still happily reading his new book ... for the moment.
I think you guys are going about this the wrong way. I don't beleive in the devil. So why do I need go if he hasn't got an "other"?
Your reasoning on this is not doing you any favours, although it is worth a chuckle at best. Are you a salesman by chance? Col
There are links. That's been my argument the entire time. The predictions of evolutionary theory have been found to consistently match up with scientists' observations. Since evolution consistently fits all known physical evidence, it is not just a guesstimation as you assert but factually correct. Now, would you like to tell me why adaptation is magically stopped at a certain point and at what point this is?