differences between catholics/orthodox/protestants

Catholics believe in Salvation through the sacramental system - i.e. baptism, marriage, last rights, confirmation, etc.

Protestants believe in salvation by grace through faith.

As for the 'virgin' mary - considering Jesus had brothers and sisters it is unlikely she stayed a virgin.

Many claim that catholicism took on a lot of paganism to gain greater appeal to the masses (sold out Bible centered beliefs for popularity and wide spread acceptance), part of that was having a female deity - because paganism has a lot of female deity worship. Hence the rise of the virgin mary. However the Bible only presents one mediator between God and Man - Jesus Christ.

True Protestants place the Bible as the source of all doctrine.
Catholics believe that it is the Bible and church tradition - as the church is view as having the keys of heaven, and thus the power to decide on church issues.

 

Read the book of John and slowly read where Jesus speaks.

 

Johns 5:37 ? "And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form"

John 14:28 ? "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"

John 15:15 ? "I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."

 

What happened to this post?

Weird!

Well let's deal with it anyway - it says:-
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no-one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Some claim that Jesus is here saying that he and God are the same, "one", but is that what Jesus meant?

Well if he did mean that they were one and the same, how are we to understand the following of Jesus words spoken in prayer about his disciples at John 17:6-11?

"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave me— so that they may be one as we are one."

So if the disciples were 'one' as Jesus and God were 'one', are we to assume that all of the disciples were also a part of the same 'oneness', co-equal and co-eternal with God and Christ Jesus?
Of course not!

But let's continue with Jesus' words at John 10, after he said "I and the Father are one", verses 31-36:-

"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods', to whom the word of God came— and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Yes the Jews, (like many misinformed people today), thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but was he?
He clearly knew who he was claiming to be, as he clearly and unambiguously said, "I am God's Son".

So in what way are Jesus and God 'one'?
They are 'one' in their unity of words, works and purpose, they are in agreement and Jesus encouraged exactly the same unity amongst his disciples, hence John 13:34,35 records Jesus as saying to his disciples:-

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Similarly Paul encouraged the same unity at 1 Corinthians 1:10:-
"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought."

 

It was up for about 10 seconds and I deleted because I needed to write out a full report since you were going to come back with a pre-packaged "publishing" of the jw's.

This is why I hate religions, they all try to bend the scriptures to fit their predetermined beliefs. Jesus is a stumbling block to many, just like it was written.

(I just had written a bunch and my 2 y.o. bumped me and I hit the back (side) button on the mouse.... arggggg...)

 

Ah I see, mystery solved.

No pre-packaged "publishing" of the JW's there, just my obsevations on the clear words in the bible.
No scripture bending there, just quoted straight out of the bible.
No pre-determined beliefs necessary there, just objective comment on what the bible says including when it directly records Jesus' own words like, "I am God's Son".

 

Jesus and his father are two different persons but form one God.Just as there are many ministers but one government.It is easy to understand...if you want to...

 

Government is an excellent illustration, there are indeed many Ministers ... in the UK for example we have a Prime Minister, he presides over a Cabinet of Ministers and there are many other Members of Parliament serving under them and in Opposition. Then it is said that the Queen is the Head of Government, the Head of State who is over all and who refers to the others as "My Government".

Of course none of these individuals are the same, they are all different people and fulfill different roles.

So it is with God and Christ Jesus His Son - God has entrusted His Son with a Kingdom, (prayed for by millions in the Lords Prayer ... 'thy Kingdom come ...') and it will soon carry into effect all that God has spoken about it.
Just as the Queen in the UK is involved with the UK Government, she being the head of it, she is not the Prime Minister or any of the Cabinet Ministers - So God, (Yahweh or Jehovah by name), is not the same as His Son, (Yeshua or Jesus by name), they have the same united purpose and share in that same Kingdom but they are not the same persons or the same god. Yahweh or Jehovah is the Almighty God and Yeshusa or Jesus is His Son.

 

You are totally right except that Jesus or Yeshua is also God.That's what the Bible tell me.

 

Isn't that like you saying that you and your dad are the same!

 

Some good reading and information.

Cheers

 

no...

Are you one to limit what God can do?

 

Difference between catholic and protestant

ovrlnd.com/Cults/diffofcatholics.html

and catholic and orthodox

unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/orthodox-catholic.htm

 

Yes

Wouldn't be so presumptious - just taking the cue from Jesus' own words and thinking that he ought to know:-

Like you some of the Jews thought Jesus was God but he put them right in his own words "I am God's Son"

 

No the Jews did NOT think He was God, that is what they were wanting to stone Him for. They could not swallow most things He said that is why they were so angry with Him. The Jewish leaders, the pharisees, etc... who read from the Torah could not grasp what it said about Him.

Most Jews believed the Christ would come and free them from physical bondage and be king on earth, but they didn't understand the part about Him coming as a lamb before coming as a lion.

 

Jesus never defined such concepts as trinity and never claimed to be god at all.
If the Jews are the Children of God then any jew is the Son/Daughter of god. In the John quote about the stoning he is actually quoting a passage in Judges. It is about how the Judges at the time said god told them they where like gods and had the ability to judge/jury/execute people so I really think Jesus was calling them all hypocrites. As far as corinthians goes, first corinthians is actually the second letter paul wrote to them and in the first letter he basically told them the opposite of what he said in the second letter (first corinthians) he told them to persecute anyone who wasn't christian Paul was an ass and many of the other desciples thought so too. I think the most important thing to remember about the new testament is that Jesus didn't write a single book of it. It is the writings of people who hung out with him and still didn't ever really understand what he taught them. I am pretty sure every single one of them was stoned to death or died in prison.

 

Even if you are right, and I don't think that you are, it still doesn't alter the fact that Jesus claimed to be God's Son, not God .... Colossians 1:13-15 confirms this:-

If Jesus was the 'firstborn' he had a 'beginning' i.e. he was 'created' and that does not cut it with God who has no beginning or end ... he was never created.
However it does cut it with Jesus being the firstborn Son of God who was sent to earth by his Father to represent Him ... actually Jesus used that very scenario as an illustration of what God did in repeatedly sending prophets to Israel and eventually sending His Son whom they nput to death:-

I agree that they were looking for someone to lead them from under the Roman yoke, even the disciples did not at first comprehend the true nature of his Kingdom.

 

Hmmm - bold words!
I'm not going to comment on your personal thoughts about Paul, (chosen personally as a disciple to the nations by Jesus), or your view of whether or not the disciples ever understood what he taught them and which they gave there lives for, however you need to do a bit more reading as to how they died.

 

Paul never met Jesus. He saw a vision on a road and proceeded to start a number of churches and write letters furiously about the nature of his enlightenment. If you believe his vision and that he saw the ghost of Jesus past then you should also believe Joseph Smith saw an angel and found a golden tablet. They are just as plausible and interestingly enough they both have this hangup with validating themselves through the idea of chosen apostolic succession. I am sure many of the apostles alive at the time were probably upset that someone who had killed and had imprisoned many of their kind in the past would write some of the things he did, and I am sure others didn't care. As far as understanding goes, there are many instances of the Apostles asking really stupid questions and in Mark 9 they even have a measuring contest with each other and Jesus tells them who ever thinks they have the biggest stick can be the beer wench. Ok my translation is truly twisted but if you read it you will see what I mean

Even though I really don't care I decided to look it up anyway. Let me point out first that this is just one list and there are other conflicting lists of the names of the Apostles.
Matthew killed by a sword wound.
Mark dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
Luke was hanged in Greece.
John was imprisoned for life. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross.
James the Just was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club.
James the Greater beheaded.
Bartholomew flayed to death by a whip.
Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross
The apostle Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India
Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.
Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.
Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.
Paul was imprisoned tortured and beheaded by Nero.

A few points I want to make here. Deciding what Jesus believed or what he was based on what someone else thinks is foolish and only slightly less so if they actually ever met him and thought enough of him to die trying to emulate him.

 

Weird, I answered this post yesterday, someone obviously decided to delete it!
No Paul never met Jesus, as Saul he was a member of the Sanhedrin and a zealous persecutor of Christians. As a result of Jesus vision to him on the road to Damascus he stopped persecuting them and turned to become a Christian himself.
Paul was a very well educated man of his day being taught by Gamaliel and as mentioned a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin, his change to become a Christian had far-reaching consequences to his standing in the community.

Paul did not setup his 'own' churches, he helped setup congregations of followers of Jesus in various parts of the surrounding area ... just as Jesus had asked him to do as part of his assignment from Jesus to be 'an apostle to the nations'.

Apostolic succession did not come with Paul, (neither did it actually involve Paul ... Catholics allege Peter was the 1st Pope but that's another contentious issue). Paul spoke against those who were attemting to draw attention to individual apostles, (including himself), rather than to Christ :-

Initially the Christians were wary of Paul, quite understandably as he had been a persecutor of them previously, but they soon changed their view of him and worked along with him. Notice the respect given to him at the discussions at Jerusalem recorded at Acts 15 and note the comments of affection from Peter:-

That would be true if it were just based on what someone else thinks, however the belief of Christians is that the bible is the inspired Word of God; if you believe that then there is nothing foolish.
Indeed as the bible itself says it is foolish not to believe it ... but then as it also says, "Faith is not the possession of all people".