Finally! A country that is welcoming the terrorist George W Bush.

Ah, I've never argued against that.. Again, you miss the point. 1% or less - US vs. France, China and Russia, weighing in at over 80% +.

Are you getting it now?

The US role in Iran / Iraq was simple. Keep the Middle East stabilized - and protect Israel.

How do you do that? Keep each side equal. Iran was larger and more powerful than Iraq. If Iran had taken over Iraq at that time, it would have most certainly meant the fall of other countries in the Middle East (not just Israel) including other Arab nations. Keeping Iraq free from Iran was always the goal for the US.

I'm not talking about culpability here. I'm talking about motive. The US motive was insuring stability in the region. It's pretty clear, now after Saddam was removed what France's, Russia's, and China's role was (among other nations)... Oil for food rings a bell.

Hell, I still remember that nuke that France tried to fly into the country a few years back. Israel blew it up, thank God, else Saddam would have been nuking people in the Middle East, including Iran.

All the US wants is PEACE. Why not help us to that end?

 

I'm all for peace. Big proponent of the "let's all get along" paradigm. However, I think that is best accomplished by compromise, not at the barrell of a gun.

Please see my discussion with GRated.

So we sold weapons to Iraq, and sold weapons to Iran. If you believe the figures, we put more weapons in Iran by a whole lot. Then we gave weapons to the Mujhahideen. So Iraq fought Iran, Iran fought Iraq, Iraq attacked Afghanistan, and Afghanistan was repelling an invasion with Russia.

But we were just trying to help out with, you know man. Peace. Peace and love.

My friend, that is a slippery slope. Ends justify the means. Eye for an eye. It's all starting to run together. If we stand too close to the combatants in these battles, we run the risk of catching a stray shot in the head.

 

It is kinda hard to compromise when someone already has the barrel pointed at you. They call that submission....

Yawn...

And who was 80+ percent of the problem?

I will admit, a 1% effort certainly was not going to make a significant impact on peace. 80+ % in the opposite direction however, certainly did negate peace.

I did not say eye for eye. Why not be part of the solution, instead of either A) bitching about the problem, or B) adding to the problem.

If that 80% ++++ would help us, the war would be over in days!

Think about that for a while.

 

I'm neither bitching nor adding to the problem. I'm presenting another POV about this. It is possible to defeat an enemy without firing a shot.

Unfortunately, we waded knee deep into the cesspool of supporting the enemies of our enemies, and at times, supporting both sides. When it's all said and done, the very people we helped and enabled have turned on us. We've found out that the enemy of our enemy is not our friend. He's just another enemy waiting for his opportunity to strike.

And from that, we need to think about how we do business economically and militarily with other countries, because (IMO) the sum of the last 30 years arrived on our doorstep on Sept 11.

I'm pretty depressed that we're destroying our economy policing the world, when our greatest strength wasn't the threat of force, our democratic ideals or our christian morality. It was our mighty dollar. Everyone wanted it, everyone bowed before it.

 

Another lost soul wallowing in guilt clinging to the self loathing exercise that wants to believe its all our fault.

A Democratic Presidential candidate tried the same thing recently. Ron Paul Syndrome is a difficult thing to get over. All is not lost. You can still snap out of it if you try.

 

Every time someone brings up foreign policy, they get pigeonholed. No intelligent debate, just the usual Ron Paul slams.

Here is a challenge Jeremy. Construct an argument that our past middle east affairs have had no effect on Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the Mujahideen, Al Queda, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Syria and Palestine. Explain how these countries love the fact we sell them guns, and then sell their enemy guns. If you could provide some examples of how this has worked out positively that would be great too.

Personally, I think bombing cities, overthrowing governments and providing financial aid and weapons to dictators is not in our best national interest. Do you? Have you seen where the US Dollar is at today? Do you live in a state that manufactures? Have you seen the jobs fleeing as we buy consumer goods from overseas in a cycle of spending that is going to leave us flat broke?

When you have that argument together, PM me and we can carry on.

And btw, "Yawn" has to be the weakest response to facts that conflict with your preconceived notions.

 

I've actually gone and talked about what RP said a few times. Usually his mind-numbed followers can't keep up and walk away crying like little girls.

 

When I get a chance to engage in another debate, I'll keep an eye out for your stuff. When we keep it to the issues, we all stand to learn something.

 

Wait a minute. Do you really think our policies had nothing to do with 9-11? I know people want you to believe they hate us for our freedom's, but that is not true. They hate us because we support Isreal and they do not like us on their soil or our involvement in their political decisions.

Again, anyone who disagrees with the current administration is anti-American, self loathering terrorist? That is a silly statement to make. To say it is all our fault is misguided, but to say our policies, which are there to protect our interest and our interests alone, had nothing to do with it is an uninformed statement.

I am not a self loather and am probably more patriotic than most people, I just see it as it is not as people want you to see it.

 

And? So they don't like us cuz we support Israel? Does that mean we should stop?

They don't like us because we have bases in Saudi Arabia. OBL isn't SA. Does he get to dictate where our bases are?

Here's the short list of OBL's demands. Do you find these acceptable?

Is this the beaten wife defense coming up? We deserved it. I'm sorry, I won't do it again. Please stop hitting me!

 

That's what passes for debate around here when one side runs out of facts.

 

The CIA creation is not about no more lorien. He was the patsy for 9/11 and now none of the neocons care where he is, if he's even still alive.

He served his purpose years ago, and now (except a few dodgy CIA videos of people looking like him being released every now and then to pacify the sheeple) he don't matter anymore.

 

Why is accountability an issue for you?

 

Yes AGS, we know you think 9/11 was a jewish lizard conspiracy plotted by bush and cheney. Are you ready to answer those questions we keep asking you, or are you gonna cut and run early this time and save us all the trouble of pointing out how you cannot defend your own position here

Good boy AGS. You are such a good little puppy, aren't you? Wanna gnaw on RP's bone some more?

 

Why are you answering a question with a question? Do you agree, yes or no, that we deserved to be attacked? And secondly, do you agree or not that we should cede to OBL's demands in full to make sure we don't get attacked again?

 

Dude, forget the Jewish and the lizard, I never said anything at all about Jews and lizards.

Put the "Bill O'Reilly Pocketbook" away fella, you just sound silly when you keep going on about lizards and shit.

 

I know. Your strange obsession with silverstein or whatever his name is has nothing to do with this. I know, AGS.

And how many times must I say it AGS. You have 2 choices here: You can believe in lizards, or you can believe in a theory told to you by a guy who believes in lizards. I'm not sure which makes you look better, to be honest. But I suspect its the first. Taking conspiracy advice from a crazy person doesn't help your cause

 

Why did you negative rep me?

I cannot justify people being attacked. I don't like us being attacked, I don't like us attacking others. I'm not a fan of revenge or terrorism.

That said, we have meddled a lot more in middle eastern affairs than they have in ours. It's hard to get into a bar fight if you don't leave the house.

Absolutely not. I think we should stop providing him with recruiting material, withdraw all of our forces in a position of aggression, transition to a UN peacekeeping force, and westernize/aid the places he hides and recruits from until he is just a marginal looney-toon leading a rag tag group consisting of his 2 cousins and a childhood friend.

 

Feeling paranoid today? I didn't.

I'm cutting out your other blather, cuz its irrelevant. So you do not believe we should cede to his demands. So why they attacked us is irrelevant, isn't it? They did attack us. They declared war on us back in the 90's and have followed up until 2002 when Bush took the offensive. What exactly are you unhappy about again?

 

LOL. It's getting oh so easy to figure out these days that when you have nothing to say you start talking BS about lizards. What kind of a crap-hat 2 choices are they??

You carry on believing in your comfort blanket that 9/11 was commited by 19 terrorists mate, I will always believe that that is complete BS, that much will never change.

Cut out the lizard crap man it just makes yoo soundz stoopid.