That's great and all, but i am not interested in more imaginary theories about what happens when you die. Lol at the post above ^
Because humans didnt have confidence in themself. So we needed some one responsible. Someone to blame and so on.
Bwaha, is that so ? I guess i'll to look into it a bit more. Just used to the "read the following 'bla bla' and you shall understand that people who die go to heaven or hell/their spirits are on earth/you have a new life/any other foolish theory". Kinda had my head stuck up my ass this time.
No, it doesn't back up what you are saying. He is using it out of context. All it's saying is that creating a legacy on earth is pointless, cause you'll be dead and not benefit from that legacy, and surprise, it fits into the context of that whole book, which is "vanity of vanities, all is vanity". Surely that's not the only biblical argument by Jehovah's Witnesses for there being no hell. And surely they have an explination for Luke 16:19-31. Or maybe not.
That's not the question I was answering for him. You are a kick behind the play my friend. Please try and catch up Col
What were you trying to answer then? I went back and read the posts, and you have three of them: Argument against evolution: Agreement with him that there is no hell: Argument that that there is no tooth fairy: If I'm mistaken, please show me what else you meant by this: And that is what my post was about-the fact that your argument for no hell was taken way out of context. Really, please enlighten me as to where I got confused, or are you just trying to confuse and mislead people again? Gonna have to start avoiding you soon, but not until I mark you.
Umm....your quotes....are they all from me? I think you have some others in there as well. However, you would like some material on why "Hell" is not a Bible teaching? Let me know and I will provide some for you. Col
Sure, as long as it's not Ecclesiastes 9:5 (which I've already showed was used out of context) and you only use the Canonical New Testament or Old Testament as your source. Those pamphlets seem to try and quote different biblical versus, then take things from Enoch and make it look like it was part of the quote from another Biblical verse. Anything from the book of Enoch is already fake as far as I'm concerned, unless you can give me a reason why it was wrongly (in your view) excluded from the canon. I'll actually give this fair consideration, Like I did for the books that I only heard about with the whole Da Vinci Code phenomenon, then promptly dismissed them when I learned the reasons why they were exluded from the canon. Also, if you could give an explination for Luke 16:19-31, that'd be great too.
Ahhh....the Rich Man and Lazarus. I have just the information for you. Please read on: The Rich Man and Lazarus—Parable or Narrative? THE great majority of the religious sects of Christendom hold that eternal torment in a burning hell is the destiny of the wicked. The words of Jesus recorded at Luke 16:19-31 regarding the rich man and Lazarus are among the proofs offered in support of this teaching. It is argued that these words tell of an incident, are a narration of what actually took place. A tract published by one who holds to this view asks: “Do you not think all who heard the Lord Jesus relate the story of the rich man and Lazarus, would naturally suppose He meant to teach conscious existence after death in happiness or woe?†Granting, for the sake of argument, that his listeners did think it was an actual incident, that, far from proving that it was, proves just the opposite. How so? Because we are explicitly told that the reason Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations was—that people might understand?—no, but that they might NOT understand. Note his words: “To you [his disciples] it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.†(Luke 8:10, NW) Obviously, whatever meaning his listeners got from the illustration was bound to be the wrong one. But some further object because Jesus did not indicate in so many words that this was an illustration. But is it necessary that Jesus do this every time, when we have the plain statement that “without an illustration he would not speak to themâ€? (Matt. 13:34, NW) The mere fact that names are given cannot be used as an argument against its being an illustration, in view of all the evidence that proves that to take it literally is to outrage reason and common sense and to contradict the rest of God’s Word. ABSURDITIES Briefly, in this illustration we first read of a rich man clothed in purple and fine linen who lived in magnificence and of a beggar named Lazarus who sat at his gate, full of ulcers, and who craved the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Each in course of time died. Lazarus was taken by angels to recline upon Abraham’s bosom whereas the rich man was buried, and in Hades suffered torment and from which place he saw Lazarus.—Luke 16:19-23, NW. Note here that not one word is said about Lazarus’ having been a good man, about his having had faith and proving it by works; both of which are indispensable to gaining everlasting life. (Heb. 11:6; Jas. 2:14-26) When are mere wretchedness, poverty and disease a guarantee of salvation? Neither is there a word about the rich man’s having been wicked. By what kind of reasoning and by what principles of justice can it be maintained that simply because a man enjoyed the good things of this life to the full for threescore years and ten he must suffer the agonies of a burning hell for billions times billions of years, yes, for eternity? Even fallen, imperfect man appreciates that justice requires that “the punishment fit the crime,†and certainly God is more just than man. Abraham, David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathea, all had great wealth; does that fact doom them to eternal torment? Further, Jesus in his arguments with the Jewish clergy evinced a fine sense of logic, second to none. Would he give such a dire warning on the wages of sin and not even mention sin, or tell of the rewards of faith and obedience and not even mention them? Had Jesus meant to warn his listeners about eternal torment he certainly would have stressed these points; but he did nothing of the kind. Not only that, but we read that Lazarus was carried off to Abraham’s bosom. Are all those gaining salvation reclining on Abraham’s bosom? If we grant that this expression is a figure of speech, why insist that what befell the rich man be taken literally? It simply does not make sense to take one part of the account literally and another parallel part figuratively. Further note that this is the only place in the Scriptures where consciousness and suffering are associated with Hades. Nor will it do to claim that before Jesus’ death Hades had two compartments, one for the good and the other for the wicked, and that after he died for man’s sin then the good went to heaven, for at the time Jesus spoke this illustration he had not yet died. That Hades is used figuratively is apparent from Revelation 6:8, 9, where Hades is shown as riding horseback, and also at Revelation 20:14, where Hades is shown—not as being the lake of fire—but as being itself cast into the lake of fire. UNSCRIPTURAL Making Jesus’ words regarding the rich man and Lazarus literal becomes even more untenable when compared with what the rest of God’s Word has to say regarding the penalty of sin and the condition of the dead. Adam was not warned of eternal torment, and upon sinning was simply and plainly told: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.†(Gen. 3:19; 2:17, NW) Nor did Jehovah God say, “Your body will return to the dustâ€; no, but YOU, Adam, will do so. There is no mistaking the plain testimony of the Scriptures: “The wages sin pays is death.â€â€”Rom. 6:23, NW. And what is death, the state or condition of the dead—conscious suffering or conscious bliss? No! Man dies as the beast; the dead know not anything; there is no consciousness in Sheol (Hebrew equivalent for Hades). Man’s “breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.†David prayed for God to spare his life lest “I go hence, and be [yes, exist] no more.†Peter likened the wicked to brute beasts that perish. Brute beasts are not tormented after death.—Ps. 146:4; 39:13; Eccl. 3:19-21; 9:5, 10; 2 Pet. 2:12, NW. Besides, are we not assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust? Why a resurrection if at death man receives his eternal reward? (Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29, NW) When the brother of Mary and Martha, Jesus’ friend Lazarus, died, did Jesus comfort those women by assuring them that Lazarus was not dead? No, but with the assurance that he would rise from the dead. His sisters knew that he would “rise in the resurrection on the last day.†And when Jesus called him forth, did he call Lazarus down from Abraham’s bosom, from limbo or from a burning hell? No, but from the grave. Incidentally, had Lazarus been conscious in any such place we may be certain he would have told all his friends about the remarkable experience he had, for he had been dead four days. His very silence on this point is strong circumstantial evidence that he was unconscious.—John 11:22-44, NW. Besides, how could we account for Abraham’s being in heaven in view of Jesus’ words: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of manâ€? And did not Peter on the day of Pentecost point out to his listeners that David “both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. Actually David did not ascend to the heavensâ€? (John 3:13; Acts 2:29, 34, NW) None of God’s servants had a heavenly reward held out to them before the coming of Christ Jesus; that is why his apostles even after his resurrection were looking to an earthly kingdom.—Ps. 45:16; Acts 1:6-8. Returning to the illustration: it next tells us of the rich man’s calling “Father Abraham†to send Lazarus to give him relief by a drop of water on the tip of his finger, upon which Abraham reminds him of the good things he enjoyed in his lifetime as compared with what Lazarus had; besides, there is a great chasm between, which makes it impossible for anyone to cross from one place to the other. The rich man then requests that Lazarus be sent to warn his five brothers, but he is told that they have Moses and the Prophets and that if they would not listen to these they would not listen to one raised from the dead.—Luke 16:24-31, NW. According to the Scriptures heaven and Hades (Sheol) are at opposite extremes. (Ps. 139:8; Luke 10:15) Could we imagine those in one place seeing those in the other and carrying on a conversation? And were the rich man in a burning hell would he ask for just a drop of water to cool his tongue? How much relief would that bring? Would it last to reach him? Could anyone get anywhere near a burning hell with just a drop of water? Obviously this is a figure of speech even as is Abraham’s bosom, yes, and as are all the rest of Jesus’ words on that occasion. MEANING OF THE ILLUSTRATION Since we cannot escape the conclusion that Jesus’ words regarding the rich man and Lazarus are an illustration, what do they illustrate, what is their meaning? In brief they tell of the change in the relative positions of two classes of people due to the preaching of the truth, both in Jesus’ day and in ours. The rich man well pictures the Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provision; who considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple; who were very self-righteous, wearing fine linen; and who were proud of being Abraham’s offspring.—Rom. 3:1, 2; Matt. 8:12; 23:27, 28; Rev. 19:8; Matt. 3:9, NW. The beggar Lazarus, whose name means “God is helper,†well pictures the Jewish common people, who were despised by the clergy, who because of neglect were spiritually sick and were hungering and thirsting for righteousness, and who appreciated their need of the Great Physician, Christ Jesus.—John 7:49; Matt. 5:6; Mark 2:17, NW. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus pictured a change taking place in the relative positions of these two classes. That this should be so should not surprise us, for time and again the Scriptures speak of persons as dying or having died though still alive, meaning thereby that a change has taken place in their lives. (See 1 Corinthians 11:30; Colossians 3:3; 1 Timothy 5:6; Jude 12.) The preaching by Jesus that exposed the hypocrisy, greed and false teaching of the Jewish clergy caused a change to take place in their lives. (Matt. 23; Luke 16:14; Matt. 15:1-9) From a state of self-satisfied and luxurious ease they were brought into a state of torment; such torment that they had no peace until they had put the Son of God to death.—Matt. 21:45, 46. Those pictured by Lazarus, the Jewish common people of faith toward God, likewise experienced a change in their condition due to the preaching of Jesus, to become the spiritual remnant of Jewry. Even as their name “Lazarus†indicates, they were helped, comforted of God and given the hope of God’s heavenly kingdom. Yes, the poor and spiritually sick harlots and tax collectors were entering the kingdom of God and were receiving God’s favor, as pictured by reclining upon Abraham’s bosom. The heavy burdens the Pharisees had placed upon them were being removed, and they became themselves part of the “seed of Abraham†in whom all the families of the earth are to bless themselves.—Matt. 11:6; 21:31; Gal. 3:7, 26; Matt. 23:4; 11:28-30, NW. And the great chasm between the two classes? This pictures Jehovah’s righteous judgments, which cannot be changed. The religious leaders as a class had fixed their destiny by sinning against the holy spirit, for which there is no forgiveness; and their plea to have their torment eased, even in the slightest, by diminishing the preaching of the truth, was not to be complied with.—Mark 3:29; Acts 5:27-32, NW. The five brothers of the rich man well picture the associates of the Jewish clergy who manifested the same spirit as the Pharisees. These, refusing to believe in Jesus, showed thereby that they actually were not taking heed to what Moses and the Prophets had said. And that they would not believe even if one rose from the dead was borne out when Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, did actually rise from the dead.—John 7:47, 48; 5:46, 47; 12:10, 11. All these facts in fulfillment of this illustration find a striking parallel in our day. For a long time the hypocritical, greedy, tradition-following clergy of Christendom had things all their own way in exploiting their flocks and neglecting their spiritual interests, whereas the remnant of anointed spiritual Israelites were viewed and treated as a diseased beggar fit only for association with dogs of the street. But with the preaching of the good news of Jehovah’s kingdom a change has taken place in these two classes, and since 1919 this once-despised, outcast spiritual remnant of anointed Christians have been lifted high in the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, and have been given Kingdom interests, especially to preach the good news of God’s now-established Government for mankind’s blessing. Thus others not of the remnant may share in their comfort, and they now do.—Ezek. 34:1-16, AS; Matt. 24:14. Today the clergy are being tormented by the great witness since being given by the Christian witnesses of Jehovah whereas the “laity†of good will are being comforted and are being brought into a position of favor with the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God; a case in point being the joy these experienced at the international assembly of Jehovah’s witnesses in 1953. Again there will be no soothing of the torment of the clergy by a letup in the preaching work; neither will any special sign be given now to convince the commercial and political allies of the clergy that this message is of Jehovah God. Only if viewed thus do the words of Jesus recorded at Luke 16:19-31 make sense, have value and pertinency for our day, and harmonize with the rest of the Scriptures. Col
Sorry, I don't have an archive of pamphlets handy to copy and paste from, but I'm sure I'll find something lengthy I can copy in that will explain why, in detail, what you copied is a false interpretation of the Bible.
Well, soon as I say that, I find it So, here it is. Seems to come from your watchtower translation's issues with not having a very accurate understanding of ancient words. *** Source: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/biblical-evidence-for-eternal-hell.html One cannot deny the traditional Christian doctrine of hell and honestly call oneself an orthodox Christian. No mainline or self-proclaimed evangelical denomination denies this doctrine (Seventh-Day Adventists being a special case), and of course, Catholicism and Orthodoxy have always held to this belief as well. It has often been noted that Jesus Himself spoke more about hell than He did about heaven. The following are the major scriptural evidences for both the existence of, and the everlasting duration of hell: The Greek meaning of aionios ("eternal," "everlasting") is indisputable. It is used many times referring to eternal life in heaven. The same Greek word is also used to refer to eternal punishments (Mt 18:8, 25:41,46, Mk 3:29, 2 Thess 1:9, Heb 6:2, Jude 7). Even in one verse - Mt 25:46 - the word is used twice: once to describe heaven and once for hell. "Eternal punishment" means what it says. There is no way out of this without doing violence to Scripture. The Jehovah's Witnesses render "punishment" as "cutting-off" in their bogus New World Translation in an attempt to establish their doctrine of annihilationism, but this is impermissible. If one is "cut off," that is a one-time event, not an eternal one. If I am cut off the phone with somebody, would anyone think to say I am "cut off eternally?" This word, kolasis, is defined in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament as "(eternal) punishment." Vine (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words) says the same thing, as does A.T. Robertson - all impeccable language scholars. Robertson writes: There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. {Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, vol. 1, p. 202} Since it is preceded by aionios, then it is punishment which continues forever (not non-existence which continues indefinitely). The Bible couldn't be more clear than it is. What more could be expected? Likewise for the related Greek word aion, which is used throughout Revelation for eternity in heaven (e.g., 1:18, 4:9-10, 5:13-14, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7, 22:5), and also for eternal punishment (14:11, 20:10). Some attempt to argue that Revelation 20:10 only applies to the devil, but they must explain Revelation 20:15: "and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." The "book of life" clearly has reference to human beings (cf. Rev 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:11-14, 21:27). It is impossible to deny that fact. Now on to some annihilationist "proof texts": Mt 10:28: The word for "destroy" is apollumi, which means, according to Vine, "not extinction, but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being." The other verses in which it appears make this meaning clear (Mt 10:6, Lk 15:6,9,24, Jn 18:9). Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament or any other Greek lexicon would confirm this. Thayer was a Unitarian who probably didn't believe in hell. But he was also an honest, objective scholar, so he gave the proper meaning of apollumi, in agreement with all other Greek scholars. The same argument applies to Mt 10:39, Jn 3:16 (same word). 1 Cor 3:17: "Destroy" is the Greek, phthiro, meaning literally, "to waste away" (much like apollumi). When the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., the bricks were still there. it was not annihilated, but wasted. So shall it be with the wicked soul, which will be wasted or ruined, but not blotted out of existence. We see the meaning of phthiro clearly in every other instance of it in the NT (usu. "corrupt"), where in each case, the meaning is as I have said (1 Cor 15:33, 2 Cor 7:2, 11:3, Eph 4:22, Jude 10, Rev 19:2). Acts 3:23 refers to simply being banished from the people of God, not annihilation. "Soul" just means a person here (cf. Deut 18:15-19, from which this passage is derived; see also Gen 1:24, 2:7,19, 1 Cor 15:45, Rev 16:3). We see this usage in English when someone says, "There was not a living soul there." Rom 1:32 and 6:21-2, James 1:15, 1 Jn 5:16-17 either refer to physical or spiritual death, neither of which means "annihilation." The first is separation of body from soul, the second, separation of the soul from God. Phil 1:28, 3:19, Heb 10:39: "Destruction" or "perdition" is the Greek apolia. Its meaning as "ruin" or "waste" is clearly seen in, e.g., Mt 26:8 and Mk 14:4 (a waste of ointment). In Rev 17:8, when it refers to the Beast, it states that the Beast is not wiped out of existence: "...They behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." Heb 10:27-31 must be understood in harmony with Heb 6:2, which speaks of "eternal judgment" (mentioned above in discussion of aionios). The only way to synthesize all the data presented here is to adopt the eternal hellfire view. The counter-arguments, on the other hand, almost always have simple contrary explanations. Heb 12:25,29: Is 33:14, a verse similar to 12:29, says, "... who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" The metaphor of God as a fire (cf. Acts 7:30, 1 Cor 3:15, Rev 1:14) is not the same as hellfire, which is spoken of as eternal or unquenchable, within which the wicked suffer consciously (Mt 3:10,12, 13:42,50, 18:8, 25:41, Mk 9:43-48, Lk 3:17). 2 Pet 2:1-21: In v.12, "utterly perish" is from the Greek kataphthiro. In the only other place in the NT where this word appears (2 Tim 3:8), it is translated as "corrupt" in KJV. If the annihilationist interpretation were applied to that verse, it would read, "...men of nonexistent minds..." 2 Pet 3:6-9: "Perish" is the Greek apollumi (see comment on Mt 10:28 above), so annihilation, as always, is not taught, by virtue of the simple meaning of the Greek word. Furthermore, in v.6, where it is said that the world "perished" in the flood, it is obvious that it was not annihilated, but wasted, consistent with the other interpretations above. Orthodox Christians must defend their beliefs as commanded in Scripture (1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3). This is a loving act, if what we speak is indeed the truth. The proclamation of biblical and Christian truth often makes people angry, but that should not deter us from doing it. On this issue, Protestants (excluding Adventists), Catholics, and Orthodox all agree (in their official doctrinal statements), so those squabbles don't even enter into the discussion. That fact, along with the biblical evidence above, ought to be sufficient to put the matter to rest, for anyone who respects the Bible and Christian, apostolic Tradition.
Of course anyone "who wants to" can twist anything from the Bible. But I ask this. Why? What is the agenda for doing so? Why waste soooooooo much time and effort to falsify teachings if they were falsified in any way? There would be two main reasons for doing this IF there was such an agenda. Power and/or Money. Jehovah's Witnesses want neither. We don't want it and we don't need it. What does this leave? The Bible and what it teaches. I think it's hilarious that soooo many think we have our own version of the Bible or we have written our own!! The NWT is put together by Wescott and Hort. Go look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. Yes, some of the translation has been modified. Not for any "agenda" but for accuracy. Look. Believe what you want to believe mate. It's not up to me to decide for you. That's your decision. If you don't want to listen, then don't. What you and I do or say is not going to change what God is going to do very soon. For me? I'll keep doing what I feel is right and I'll also keep studying God's word. If other's want to put down Jehovah's Witnesses and what we are trying to do for people. Then so be it. People have persecuting and trying to stop us for centuries. Unsuccessfully, I must say. Have a nice day. Col
Right, cause the overwhelming majority of New Testiment Greek scholars are wrong, and only your select few were shown the real truth by God Himself, correct? In that case, no there is no point in trying to show you facts. You have yourself a built in failsafe. Anything I show is (to you) interpreted through blind eyes. Maybe you stopped at the part where the author bashed Jehova's Witnesses? I hope you will look into it further with an open mind to the facts. I appologize for that part, but it was the first credible article that I came across. If you ever start to question some of these things and want to talk about it in private, just PM me. I really don't mean any ill will against you. We may be different robots with different "Genuine People Personalities", but we're still of the same race. What is God going to do very soon? I admit I don't know all that much about Jehovah's Witness predictions. I'd like to hear them.
You didn't get what I said. Go find out who Westcott and Hort are first. Then read my post again. Then reply here. I question everything that comes my way when the Bible is mentioned or our organization is mentioned. I use the Bible as a measuring stick and I use our organization as a measuring stick. You see, if we can't have the Bible as a credible source, then we have nothing at all. I study the Bible in it's entirety to use it against all other sources of information. However, if that source does not fit in harmony of the theme of the Bible, then I have to question the credibility of that source and also find out what the agenda is of that source. It's a bit complex I know. But, it works very well and keeps me on my toes and focussed on what the Bible teaches on not what man teaches. It's not really a prediction as such. It's all in the Bible. If you have studied the Bible you would already know most of these things. However, some of the prophecies to be fulfilled may be looked at differently somewhat by "scholars" and other folk. Basically, it goes like this: Religion will be banned wordlwide by the UN. How Will False Religion End? Picture the scene. A harlot is sitting on the back of a fearsome beast. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:1-4) Whom does the harlot represent? She exerts influence “over the kings of the earth.†She dresses in purple, uses incense, and is exceedingly wealthy. In addition, by means of her spiritistic practice, ‘all the nations are misled.’ (Revelation 17:18; 18:12, 13, 23) The Bible helps us to see that this harlot is a worldwide religious entity. She depicts, not any one religion, but all religions that produce rotten fruit. The beast that the harlot rides pictures the world’s political powers. (Revelation 17:10-13) False religion straddles the back of this political beast, attempting to influence its decisions and to control its direction. Soon, though, an amazing event will take place. “The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.†(Revelation 17:16) In a sudden, shocking move, the world’s political powers will turn on false religion and completely destroy her! What will prompt this action? The Bible book of Revelation answers: “God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought.†(Revelation 17:17) Yes, God will call false religion to account for all the despicable acts she has committed in his name. In a stroke of perfect justice, he will use her political paramours as his instrument of execution. What must you do if you do not want to share the fate of false religion? “Get out of her, my people,†urges God’s messenger. (Revelation 18:4) Indeed, now is the time to flee from false religion! But to where can you flee? Not into atheism, since its future is also bleak. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) The only haven is within true religion. How can you identify true religion? God's Day will arrive. What Is to Come? 19 The Gospel passages in Matthew, Mark, and Luke combine with Revelation chapters 17-19 to shed considerable light on what will soon occur. At God’s fixed time, the great tribulation will begin with an attack against the world empire of false religion (Babylon the Great). This will be particularly intense against Christendom, which corresponds to unfaithful Jerusalem. “Immediately after†this phase of the tribulation, “there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth [unprecedented] anguish of nations.â€â€”Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25. 20 In what sense will ‘the sun be darkened, the moon not give its light, the stars fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens be shaken’? Doubtless, in the early part of the great tribulation, many luminaries—prominent clergymen of the religious world—will have been exposed and eliminated by “the ten horns†mentioned at Revelation 17:16. No doubt political powers too will have been shaken up. Could there also be frightening events in the physical heavens? Quite likely, and far more awe-inspiring than those described by Josephus as occurring near the end of the Jewish system. We know that in the ancient past, God displayed his power to cause such cataclysmic effects, and he can do so again.—Exodus 10:21-23; Joshua 10:12-14; Judges 5:20; Luke 23:44, 45. 21 At this point all three Gospel writers use to′te (then) to introduce the next development. “Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven.†(Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27) Since World War I, Jesus’ true disciples have discerned the composite sign of his invisible presence, while most people have not recognized it. But Matthew 24:30 points forward to a further “sign†appearing in the future, that of “the Son of man,†and all nations will be compelled to take note. When Jesus comes with clouds of invisibility, opposing humans worldwide will have to recognize that “coming†(Greek, er·kho′me·non) because of a supernatural demonstration of his kingly power.—Revelation 1:7. 22 Matthew 24:30 uses to′te again to introduce what comes next. Then the nations, sensing the consequence of their situation, will beat themselves and lament, perhaps recognizing that their destruction is imminent. How different with God’s servants, for we will be able to lift our heads up, knowing deliverance is near! (Luke 21:28) Revelation 19:1-6 also shows true worshipers in heaven and on earth rejoicing over the end of the great harlot. 23 Jesus’ prophecy goes on to say, at Mark 13:27: “Then [to′te] he will send forth the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.†Jesus here focuses on the remnant of the 144,000 “chosen ones†still alive on earth. Early in the conclusion of the system of things, these anointed disciples of Jesus were brought into theocratic unity. However, according to the sequence employed, Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 describe something else. “With a great trumpet sound,†the remaining “chosen ones†will be gathered from the ends of the earth. How will they be gathered? Unquestionably, they will be “sealed†and clearly identified by Jehovah as part of “those called and chosen and faithful.†And at God’s designated time, they will be gathered up to heaven to be king-priests. This will bring joy to them and to their faithful companions, the “great crowd,†who will themselves be marked for ‘coming out of the great tribulation’ to enjoy blessings on a paradise earth.—Matthew 24:22; Revelation 7:3, 4, 9-17; 17:14; 20:6; Ezekiel 9:4, 6. 24 When the apostles said, “Tell us . . . ,†Jesus’ reply covered more than they could grasp. Yet, within their lifetime they rejoiced to see the typical fulfillment of his prophecy. Our study of Jesus’ reply has focused on the part of his prophecy that will come to pass in the near future. (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28) Already we can see that our deliverance is getting nearer. We can look forward to the start of the great tribulation, then the sign of the Son of man, and then God’s gathering of the chosen ones. Finally, as Jehovah’s Executioner at Armageddon, our Warrior-King, the enthroned Jesus, will “complete his conquest.†(Revelation 6:2) That day of Jehovah, when he executes vengeance, will come as a grand finale to the conclusion of the system of things that has marked the day of the Lord Jesus from 1914 onward. 25 May you continue to benefit yourself by divine teaching, in order to respond to the yet future fulfillment of Jesus’ words: “As these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near.†(Luke 21:28) What a future lies before the chosen ones and the great crowd as Jehovah proceeds to sanctify his holy name! Blessings in the New System of Things A New World Promised Yet, the same inspired Word of God provides assurance that there will be a new world. After foretelling the end of an old system of things, the Christian apostle Peter declared: “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.â€â€”2 Peter 3:10-13. Whose promise is this? It is given by none other than Jehovah, “the Most High over all the earth.†(Psalm 83:18) He will accomplish what men cannot. Yes, Jehovah God will bring about a new world. But when? A New World Very Near! Before God’s promised new world becomes a full-scale reality, the present “world,†or “system of things,†must come to its end. Concerning this, Jesus Christ’s disciples asked: “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?†(Matthew 24:3, King James Version) As the more accurate New World Translation puts it, Jesus’ followers asked: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?†In reply, Jesus foretold many features of the sign of his invisible presence as a spirit personage in heavenly Kingdom power. (1 Peter 3:18) For instance, he said: “Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.†From “a beginning of pangs of distress†in 1914, “this generation†pinpointed by Jesus has experienced continuing warfare, food shortages, and earthquakes as part of the sign of his invisible presence.—Matthew 24:7, 8, 34. Warfare has beset this generation in an unparalleled way since the year 1914. World War I took an estimated 14 million lives. During World War II, 55 million combatants and civilians were killed. Why, since 1914 over 100 million lives have been lost in war! Surely, this marks part of the sign of Jesus’ presence. Food shortages, also foretold by Christ, ravaged many lands after each of the two world wars. Despite scientific advancements, nearly a quarter of the world is hungry today. Each year, millions of children and others die because of malnutrition. Says The World Book Encyclopedia: “Most of the developing nations of Africa, Asia, and Latin America have barely enough food for their people. Millions in these countries go hungry. When food production or imports drop for any reason, famine may strike and thousands or millions of people may die.†Earthquakes have taken a great toll in lives during this generation marking “the time of the end.†(Daniel 12:4) Estimates of earthquake casualties vary. But since 1914 destruction by earthquakes has escalated throughout the earth, and these have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives. Commenting on just two of these, the Yorkshire Post of October 19, 1989, stated: “In 1920 a quake in China’s Jiangsu province killed 180,000, and on July 28, 1976, China suffered the worst quake in its modern history. At least 240,000 died when the northeastern city of Tangshan was almost completely levelled by a quake measuring 7.8 on the open-ended Richter scale.†The newspaper listed more than 30 other major earthquakes in the 20th century. Kingdom-preaching activity was also foretold as one of the features of the sign of Jesus’ invisible presence. He told his inquiring disciples: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.†(Matthew 24:14) As Jesus prophesied, this preaching work is now being carried on earth wide in 212 lands by upwards of 4,000,000 of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The present-day fulfillments of these and other prophecies prove that we are indeed living in “the last days.†(2 Timothy 3:1-5) Just ahead of us is the “great tribulation†also foretold by Jesus Christ. Climaxing in “the war of the great day of God the Almighty†at Har–Magedon, it will bring an end to the present wicked system of things. (Matthew 24:21; Revelation 16:14-16) Then God’s promised new world will become a reality. Blessings Humans Cannot Bring Statesmen boast about a new world order of their own making. But Jehovah, the God of heaven and earth, never asked humans to replace the present system with a new world. He himself will do that at the day and hour known only to him. (Matthew 24:34, 36) The aged apostle John had this foreview of what God, not man, will do: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’ And the One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says: ‘Write, because these words are faithful and true.’â€â€”Revelation 21:1-5. The “new heaven†is the heavenly Kingdom of Jesus Christ. The “new earth†is not another earthly globe but a new society of people on this planet—all of them obedient subjects of Christ’s Kingdom, without racial, national, or linguistic divisions. (Compare Psalm 96:1.) The present symbolic heaven and earth—the Devil’s system of things with its governmental structure influenced by Satan and his demons—will have been destroyed. (1 John 5:19) Though literal seas will remain, the figurative sea of restless, wicked mankind will be gone. Jesus’ associate heavenly rulers constitute the New Jerusalem and in association with him form a capital organization that will govern righteous human society. God will ‘tent with’ obedient mankind representatively while they are being fully reconciled with him through Christ during the thousand-year Judgment Day.—Revelation 14:1-4; 20:6. Under Kingdom rule there will be many reasons for happiness. Mourning, outcry, and pain resulting from illness, grief, and the like will be experiences of the past. Even death that spread to mankind from our first parent, sinful Adam, will be no more. (Romans 5:12) What joy will prevail when this worldwide cause for tears is gone forever! Not mortal humans but God himself gives a guarantee regarding these blessings. He is the One who says: “Look! I am making all things new.†Yes, and Jehovah God told the apostle John: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.†Basic Needs Fully Satisfied In the new world of God’s making, the earth will ultimately become a paradise. This is certain, for Jesus promised a contrite evildoer impaled alongside him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.†(Luke 23:43) Amid paradisaic conditions, such human needs as food and shelter will be fully met. Food shortages are costing millions of lives today. However noble the efforts to feed the hungry may be, greed and other factors prevent humans from solving such problems. For instance, the Saturday Star, a newspaper of Johannesburg, South Africa, reports: “Political arguments, increased fuel costs and general weariness with Africa’s seemingly never-ending conflicts are combining to delay relief . . . In Sudan, one of the worst-hit countries, between 5 million and 6 million people face starvation in 1991.†But famine will be forgotten in God’s new world. Under Kingdom rule “there will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow.â€â€”Psalm 72:16. Shelter is another human need that is far from adequately met for many in our day. Millions live in mere hovels or are totally homeless. According to The New York Times, in one Oriental land, “at an electronics company . . . , 20-year-old employees face a 73-year waiting list to get housing,†and a government report indicates that some people must live “in warehouses, offices or even toilets.†But how different it will be in the new world! In the future Paradise, “they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.â€â€”Isaiah 65:21, 22. Ecological problems will vanish in God’s promised new world. Health-threatening and crop-damaging air pollution will no longer exist. Pollution and habitat destruction now imperiling numerous plant and animal species will then be no threat. And such factors as ozone-layer depletion will not endanger life on earth. We can be sure that Jehovah God will solve all these problems, for his Word assures us that he will soon “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.â€â€”Revelation 11:18. In the new world, warfare will also be a thing of the past but not because statesmen have succeeded in disarming the nations. Rather, God will act where political rulers have failed. He will bring peace to obedient mankind in keeping with these words of the psalmist: “Come, you people, behold the activities of Jehovah, how he has set astonishing events on the earth. He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; the wagons he burns in the fire.†(Psalm 46:8, 9) In God’s promised new world so near at hand, people will wage war no more but will enjoy true peace and security.—Micah 4:2-4. Will You Be There? You can have confidence in the new world promised by Jehovah God. He does not lie. (Hebrews 6:17, 18) His Word, the Bible, is true, and what it promises always comes to pass.—John 17:17. The good news of wonderful blessings for obedient mankind is what Jehovah’s Witnesses endeavor to share with all honesthearted people. You should make efforts now to acquire knowledge of the divine purpose, and act on the marvelous promises found in the Holy Scriptures. This course can lead to endless life, for Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.†(John 17:3) Then you will be privileged to enjoy the happy times just ahead, for God’s new world is at hand! Col
Yes, I can see that the problem is you believe these two corrupt and unfaithful men--Westcott and Hort--came up with a "true" version of the Greek New Testiment. That's why in 1950 your organization used it as the sole source for your New World Translation Bible, and completely ignored the more reliable Textus Receptus. Here's a couple tidbits about Westcott and Hort you may not have heard: And something about the NWT Bible: Anyway, I can see I'm not gonna get anywhere by showing you what the Greek words actually mean since you wouldn't even be reading the same greek texts as me, so do you guys have a specific date for the end times, or is it just "soon"?
and where exactly did this "information" come from? The only texts that are available are the Emphatic Diaglott and the Septaguint. There is not specific date. Jesus said "only the Father knows". Therefore, not even Jesus himself knows. It is possible he might know a date as such since, he has been handed all authority as King of God's Kingdom. We "or anyone else for that matter" do not know when that time will be. All Jesus could say is "what signs to look for" before the end comes. You know many people say MANY things about Luther as well. It does not hide the facts that without him, the Bible may not have cleared up for hundreds of years later. God uses mysterious ways to ensure his will is done. Col
Is this really what you've been taught? The Emphatic Diaglott is just another translation of ancient greek texts and it was produced by a Christadelphian named Benjamin Wilson, with no credentials in Greek, and the Septaguint is the Greek translation of the OT. I'm talking about the original Greek texts that all English New Testament translations came from, and there are two main groups of them: The Textus Receptus and The Greek Texts of Westcott and Hort. The Former is based mainly on the Byzantine text-type, while the latter is based on the Alexandrian text-type. This results in some seemingly small variations, but when you start interpreting the texts into English, the difference can end up fairly profound, especially if you're trying to figure out what the Bible says about things like the Trinity and Hell. The following site shows some of the key verses used by Jehova's Witness to affirm that Jesus is NOT God, with the KJV and NWT side by side: http://www.evangelicalbible.com/jw.htm It shows how much the NWT differs from the other Translations like KJV which are based on the Textus Receptus. It's easy to see why you can support your beliefs easily with the NWT, but not with the KJV, and again, this all comes down to what Greek texts they were based on, and how accurately they were translated. IMO, the credentials of the Greek texts, translators, and the number of translators working on the project, DOES matter, but we probably disagree on that, with you claiming that whichever end product makes the most sense to you is the more reliable, no matter the credentials of it's translation process. This is called being Subjective, rather then Objective when you interpret the Scriptures.