What is the true religion of God?

PattiM,

but in Islam, I heard that non-muslims are called kafir(kafeer) and they are going to burn in hell. then why in Islam it's said that only muslims will go to paradise? If one believes in the existance of God and worships but not a muslim why he should suffer after death?

 

I think that while you might wish and even believe that Islam is the best way to God that there is no 'best' way. The competitive nature of 'best' is a by product of the freewill that God must have shed more tears than we could ever imagine over allowing. With freewill comes the ability of others to try to claim superiority over others in all areas of our lives. If we all strive to live the example of grace, love and forgiveness that our respective scriptures teach, there would be less fighting in the world.

 

And why did you assume it only means "Islam" the religion in this verse ? just to prove your point ?

No, Ibn Kathir does not have the final word on Koran, nobody does, anybody who has good knowledge of Islam knows that.

A scholar that gives a correct explanation of "Islam" is Mahmoud Mohammad Taha, read this book http://www.alfikra.org/book_view_a.php?book_id=7
to understand his explanation of "Islam" as a word and a concept.

BTW, if you want to honestly study Islam to know what it really is and not to satisfy your predecided atheism read this scholar's books and other writings, here is the main site http://www.alfikra.org/index.php

Good Christians or Jews who believe in God (even if they believe in the modern distorted versions of these religions) and who surrender to God and are honest. are of course "muslims" in the sense that they are surrenderers to God not "muslims" like they believe in prophet Mohammad

(This goes for those who believe in these religions because they believe it is the truth as a result of the environment they grew up in, if they refuse to believe in Prophet Mohammad because of hatred or they evade admitting the truth because of worldly gains, of course this is not surrendering to God)

 

Wow I never thought a thread would become so unorganised. Its chaos. It seems even Jackuul’s religion seems more appropriate in the thread lol.

 

*cough*

Fight all you want, but I'm content.

*cough-trying-to-make-point-cough*

 

The signs of Islam are absolutely clear. So God says that He would punish them who knowingly would deny the truth and deny His signs.

Otherwise, I think I have read somewhere that God will give Paradise to those too who will do good deeds without denying Islam or something like that. But no place for those who deny the existence of God I guess!

Although as a religion, only Islam is acceptable to God!

 

I’m afraid you haven’t proven any point and I’m assuming nothing. There was no doubt among the companions of the prophet, the respected classic scholars and the modern Islamic authorities that anything other than the religion of Islam would be accepted.

To imply that just by submitting to Allah and being good is fair enough to be accepted by Allah is a baseless argument. Most other religions say that Mohammed is nothing but an imposter and a liar. How could they be accepted?

[ “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.”]

وَمَنْ يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الْإِسْلَامِ دِينًا فَلَنْ يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ

[“This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”]
الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا

Further Arabic explanation:

وأما الإسلام في الشرع : فيختلف معناه بحسب إطلاقه وله حالتان :
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=49023&ln=ara
الحالة الأولى : أن يطلق مفرداً غير مقترن بذكر الإيمان فهو حينئذ يراد به الدين كله أصوله وفروعه من اعتقاداته وأقواله وأفعاله ، كقوله تعالى : ( إن الدين عند الله الإسلام ) آل عمران/19 ، وقوله تعالى : ( ورضيت لكم الإسلام دينا ) المائدة/3 ، وقوله : ( ومن يبتغ غير الإسلام دينا فلن يقبل منه ) آل عمران/
الحالة الثانية : أن يطلق مقترنا بالإيمان فهو حينئذ يراد به الأعمال والأقوال الظاهرة كقوله تعالى : ( قالت الأعراب آمنا قل لم تؤمنوا ولكن قولوا أسلمنا ولما يدخل الإيمان في قلوبكم ) الحجرات/14
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Just give me one fatwa from a recognized authority that assert the acceptance of Allah to those who submit to him but who don’t believe in his the last messenger Mohammed nor in words in the Quran?

Further reading for you:

http://www.sahab.com/go/fatwa.php?id=193
http://saaid.net/Doat/alsharef/14.htm

Never mind Ibn Kathir, do you believe in the hadiths, or are you from the sect of ahl-alquran who denies the authenticity of the hadiths?

Book 001, Number 0284:
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.


والذي نفسي بيده لا يسمع بي أحد من هذه الأمة يهودي ولا نصراني ثم يموت ولم يؤمن بالذي أرسلت به إلا كان من أهل النار . أخرجه مسلم في صحيحه .

Thank you for pointing me to this link, and from what I read about Mahmoud Mohammad Taha. He was a great man a humanist at heart who tried to change the othodox way people perceived Islam. I support his distorted view of Islam wholeheartedly and I wish that all Muslims follow his delusional interpretation of it. At least that will get people away from the real Islam. Sadly his views had no ground among all other schools of thought. He was rightly considered by them as an apostate.

I consider him as martyr who paid a heavy price for what he believed in, a humanist thinker who understood well the dangerous message of Islam and tried passionately to change it. He is my hero from now on.

[/QUOTE]

It is you who I think needs to honestly study Islam. I understand that you are in a situation where you mind couldn't accept the form of orthodox Islam as it has always been. However instead of doubting the religion itself, you put the blame on the interpretation and twist the meanings to satisfy your good heart, believing that you follow the truth. That reasoning will not doubt give you a sense of meaning in life, delusional however but can provide you with peace of mind.

I am not an atheist, I'm a deist.

What you say here is not true, but even if we accept your distorted interpretation of "muslims". How about other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and many others that do not submit to allah? Will they be accepted? or are they going to be roated in hell?
So in any case your argument is weak because this Ayat still apply to the non monotheist religions: [And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.]

So all the rest are losers!

 

All religion is the same. Bottom line is the teaching to let us know the goodness in life and we have to respect each others as human beings and all other living beings in the world. It is all about peace and harmony for all living beings.

 

Your words are clear,

you first said

when you were cornered you admitted there are more than one meaning to the word "Islam"

it's clear you are using evasive tactics

I'll give you something from the Koran itself :

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوب

مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

إِن تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ وَإِن تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ فَإِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

قَالَ اللّهُ هَذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ الصَّادِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٌ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا رَّضِيَ اللّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُواْ عَنْهُ ذَلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ


المائدة 116-119
The last verse in red states very clearly that honest Christians who thought they worshiped God the right way will enter paradise and that God is content with them.

(I expect you now to run to find some invalid tafsir of these verses to help you believe what you want to believe)

OK, so when I present you with true Islam, you resort to calling it "distorted view of Islam" and "delusional interpretation of it".

You just want a bad Islam so that you can dismiss it easily, I understand your psychology very well.

You admitted that his writings are humanist in nature, this is because Islam is the religion of God and God loves us and is merciful to us, there is a hadith that says that God is more merciful to us than our mothers.

You keep saying that you consider him a great man and so and so, yet you are accusing him here of hypocrisy, if he "understood well the dangerous message of Islam", he would have outrightly preached that Islam is a dangerous message.

The man is not preaching his own thinking, he explains with very clear evidence that this is the essence of Islam and this is what God wants, read these books please :

http://www.alfikra.org/book_view_a.php?book_id=10

http://www.alfikra.org/book_view_a.php?book_id=15

http://www.alfikra.org/book_view_a.php?book_id=29


You resort to prove your point by saying that the dictatorship that governed Sudan back in 1985 considered him an apostate, the Jews considered Jesus an apostate, so did all people with the prophets that were sent to them.

Let me tell you some things about me, I'm proud to say that I'm not a Muslim just because I was born to Muslim parents, There were times when I doubted the existence of God, the truth of religions and the fairness and mercy of God in case he existed. I spent years thinking and examining evidences, the first result that I reached is that I became sure that God existed, then I became more concerned about things like why God sent different religions and did he really sent them ? how is he going to judge people ? is he fair and is he merciful ?


I reached my conclusions after a long time of thinking and studying, I know that many atheists and deists who don't believe in religions like you pride themselves in thinking that they are the reasoning ones who use their brains unlike those n00b believers.

I made clear with evidence from the Koran that it is.

Honestly, I don't know what will God do with these people, I wondered about it before but I don't have the answer. Don't consider it a victory, God did not tell us about everything, there are things that he kept from us in this stage of life "غيب".


I have some questions for you Kafer, you say that you are a deist, that is you believe in "one God or supreme being", do you believe in afterlife ? and why do you think God created us and the universe ? and why is he so silent ? ( he did not send any prophets according to you )

 

nabil, I think kafer got you to the corner.

 

Yeah, what I believe to be the correct explanation. what's wrong with that ?

I believe my words are clear, there are more than a meaning to "Islam" (even more than the two meanings we mentioned before). I stated very clearly that Christians or Jews who are obedient to God are surrenderers to God, they, in Arabic we can say they are "مسلمين لله" because they are obedient to God and surrender to hos will, but when we talk about Islam the religion, it's clear they are not Muslims.

Again my words are clear

God will judge them based on HONESTY, some didn't believe in prophet Mohammad because they didn't really get in touch with Islam and didn't think it was true, others felt that it might be true but refused to admit it.

Again you're accusing him of hypocrisy and cowardice.

Is was very easy for someone who spoke fluent English like him to request political asylum in some western country and preach his true feelings according to you ?

You're really not making any sense here, this is hypocrisy and nonsense you are spewing, his sincerity and valid reason are very clear, and btw many "عارفين بالله" share this understanding of Islam, he's not alone in this understanding.

and what's with "the reality is in Islamic countries" ? I don't know about where you live but when I was questioning the existence of God and the truth of religions I frankly spoke with my parents and relatives, I live in Egypt.

 

That's what a Zionist Islam hater like you will naturally say.

Now please shut up because you don't even understand Arabic

 

You believe it to be the correct explanation and yet you said that no one has the final word on the Quran. Does this mean that your explanation could also be wrong, and its validity is questionable?

Sure there are many meanings of the word “Islam”, you could even go further and say that all children in the world upon Fitra are in fact born Muslims. Though it sounds ridicules this is what many Muslims believe in. But the point here is the meaning of “Islam” in the context of the main verse in discussion which is the religion of Islam not just submission.

<3:85 And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.>

By giving the word “Islam” a different definition from what is overwhelmingly understood (religion and not just submission) in that verse, you have by that gone against the Sunnah, denied the explanations of the most respected biographers of Islam, and opposed the Ijmaa .الاجماع.

My point is that surrendering to god isn’t in itself the key to salvation according to the Islamic tradition and the Quran. It has to be accompanied with the last religion which is Islam and its duties. The religion of Islam has abrogated all previous religions and therefore they shall not be accepted by Allah because Mohammed was sent to all people.

Since you only accept quotes from the Quran, then let me know what you think of this verse:

5:73 لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاَثَةٍ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَـهٍ إِلاَّ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُواْ عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

Shakir 5:73 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.


So, are you still with the opinion that Christians (The majority of them are Trinitarian) will be accepted by Allah according to the Quran?.

What are the bases of you this assumption “God will judge them based on HONESTY”? Or is that your wishful thinking of how good Islam should be?
(I see this leading us to the concept of abrogation" الناسخ والمنسوخ" in the Quran. Which you are more likely to deny.)

No way that I could accuse such a noble person of hypocrisy or cowardice. I made it clear that he is now my hero too. I do not doubt his sincerity at all; the guy was in fact sacrificed for that very sincerity. However what I said was regarding his distorted views and delusional interpretations, because they have no bases in Islam as we have known for the last 1400 years, so I’m referring to his believes to which I am in disagreement. I hope that the matter on this one is now closed.

Your relatives showed good understanding and that’s admirable. But I don’t really see how one person could stand up publicly and declares that he/she no longer a Muslim. Where I live a mob will beat that person to death no doubt, and I am not talking about Iran, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. Also I just happen to remember my old days at University how our Muslim brothers students used to stab the Marxist/communist group. Those Muslim gangs could not comprehend that a Muslim could deny the existence of Allah.

 

Showing real color - loser!
Didn't know that the above is arabic too

 

Wow that was a really mean response, Arnie didn't deserve that abuse. Besides, he is absolutely right, kafer knows more about religion than you.

 

I do not believe that any religion taught here on earth, is the one and only true religion anymore. Way to many translations and translations of translations. To many generations of people watering it down to fit their own needs.
The bible is a good blueprint on how to live and many religions apply some of that to their teachings. Most religions teach good principles in which we should live and many religions build upon the foundation of GOD, it is a start.

Weather you believe in GOD or not, it is each individuals choice. We should never look down on anybody if they do not have the same beliefs as others.
Don't force feed your religious believes down peoples throats if they have a different view or opinion, force feeding doesn't work.

I believe that there are far more people driven away in HIS NAME, than are called to HIM, in HIS NAME.
If you believe in GOD, then let HIM shine through your daily living and people will see that there is something different about you. They may what to know why and ask you about it, and then you can sow some seed.

The closest thing to true religion here on earth to me is, to love and respect one another and the rest will fall into place.

This is my opinion and opinions differ.

 

You said it, - it's all about relationships with Him and our neighbours, but I think that you wouldn't agree to a militant islamic strategy to force you what to believe, would you?

 

The Arabic Quran is authentic. It has no versions. And it will be authentic till the end of the world and after that.

 

It's people that take 2,000 year old documents and try to follow them word for word that cause the most problems. The world changes and these old documents do not. Following some of these old ideals only leads to hatred and persecution as evidenced world wide. Live your life as a good person and i'm sure whatever god you believe in will accept you. After all, all of your "bibles" were written by man, not god.