More Americans killed by illegal aliens than Iraq war, study says

And this doesn't take into account the roughly similiar numbers of those drunk driving...which I noted once before.

Obviously not all illegal aliens commit crimes, but many whom come in bring nothing but bad news with them. In LA county, they believe 40k criminals could have an illegal status. Right now they're trying to run through each individual with an uncertain status to decided whether or not they are here legallly (so they can deport them after they served their time). The program has garnered more success due to local involvement.

If you haven't noticed, California has attempted to send their prison population to other states, because of it's extreme number...but at no avail (due to police union contention).

Two things worth adjusting:

Change the rules of engagement to reasonable standards.

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2007/february/0222_illegals_report.shtml

Eliminated said programs. Half of illegal immigration comes through this way.

Then just allow workplace enforcement through the courts, and localities. Use a border fence to slow down drug traffic.

And then commision immigration rehaul, basing immigration off of real wage. Working hard to immigrate where wages are rising much faster than inflation, and cutting immigration where wages are stagnant or depressing.

 

Gworld just made a new friend(s)...every illegal out there....BOO AMERICA!!!

 

Rick, do you happen to know what the current status of immigration is? It seemed like such a hot topic last summer, with both dems and republicans claiming to have solutions (legislation), but then everything just went away.

 

Well...it's probably going to come back soon.

It's said that Kennedy and a few of his buddies are writing-up some legislation. Although I'm not sure Nancy Pelosi wants to go over this issue too much, because it can cost the dems their presidency. Although who knows what the reaction would be if it goes that way (as Bush would be a part of that). I don't know...I just feel at odds with this issue.

I know many conservatives will abandon the republican party over this. And while I think the Republican party isn't perfect (and needs a lot of reform), I dislike the vast majority of policy within the dem party. It's really a hard issue to deal with on so many levels.

They tend to avoid this issue for long periods of time...throughout history.

 

Pelosi doesn't have time for it...she is to busy calling Bush to complain about Cheney's arguments....if the republicans get their act together, they can win the 08 election based highly around immigration...but they have to get their at together.

 

I'm not even sure it would pass the house. A lot of the Dems that replaced the Republicans have taken a hardline position on immigration. Nancy isn't a stupid lady...I'll give her that. So I don't necessarily see her pressing this issue.

But really...if they want it, this is the best time to go after it. It really is.So you never know.
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Immigration in general, probably doesn't peak the average person's mind over Iraq or the general economy. It's more of a conservative and union member issue. Some dems and independents think it's a critical issue, but many people don't really look into the issue to think otherwise.

Although when it comes down to it, I do think the majority of Americans want reason out of chaos in immigration. And probably in most cases they wanted a more refined system.

 

Ted Kennedy has almost finished a bill on this. I think its the amnesty one. McCain is the lone republican involved. I think that says it all, doesn't it?

 

Anything unca Ted is involved with always scares me. I'm not opposed to *some amnesty*. I'm not 100% committed to it, in that I could be persuaded.

From my perspective, it needs to be addressed by significantly reducing the amount already coming in. In other words, we need to do something to close the borders. More agents, more helicoptors, more equipment, a fence, actually giving the National Guard more of a mission then standing in the sun looking at cactus.

Once the borders are secure (I don't believe 100% can be achieved, even with a fence), they need to address what to do with those already here. I wouldn't be against amnesty for those without a criminal record (even though what they've done classifies them as a criminal already). But in a measured way to make them earn it. By that, serving our country (separate issue), or 4-5 years with no criminal record, etc.

I know, I know...rewarding them. The problem here is, by encouraging those here illegally now, that are not otherwise criminals...to register in a program where they can work towards citizenship, we can focus on those who do not register and deport them. If you don't register, you have something to hide, or you didn't do what you were supposed to. Adios.

First thing first though, they have to figure out a way to stop the current influx. Without stopping it now, it's like putting a bandaid on sliced artery.

For those serving our country in armed forces, after an initial four year commitment, they get citizenship. This one really asses me off. I've seen several cases over the past few years where non-US citizens have served honorably in the military, including for us in Iraq, only to face uphill challenges later on to get citizenship. If you serve our country honorably in the military, I say that's more than enough commitment and deserving of citizenship.

 

I'm not so sure having non-citizens serving in the military is such a wise thing. I usually think back to Roman history on this though. The Romans, near the end of their civilization, relied heavily on foreigners to enlist in the army. The citizens of Rome were unwilling to fight and defend the country from invaders. Of course, when the foreign military was asked to go fight people from their home country, they'd refuse. The army was impotent.

 

I don't know what the regulations are on foreigners serving, but I suspect it's a pretty strict process.

 

I can't recall a single thing Ted has done good. I actually like his brother's quite a bit. Seems like they shot the wrong guy. *I'm kidding of coarse...I wish death on no man*

Up to 1/2 come through travel visa's. Something needs to be done to address that, without putting undo economic restriants on the travel industry.

I understand the reasoning behind this sentiment, and truely that needs to be the second thing to review after our general flow is resolved.

Exactly. But that implies workplace enforcement,...as that's the prime reason why people come here. But I suppose a really tight border and refined visitors visa might get (the above) possible.

It's a difficult path with this political climate.

Agreed, but as lorien noted, we should not get in the business of making our military out of foreigners. We should keep that within moderation....
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The one thing I'm entirely against...is giving legal status to real criminals. If you commit crimes in America,...hell, I don't even like you if your a citizen. With some American citizens I would love to deport them to a little fuckin island...so the idea of giving amnesty to illegal immigrants whom commit crimes...will just not go well with me, ever.

 

I just cannot believe my eyes. These bullshit statistics are just so beneath you all, how on earth can you buy into this crap???

Did you not realize, Rick, that the same place you got this bullshit information also reports that 95% of all murder warrants in L.A. are for illegal aliens???

Anyone with a moment to reflect simply knows this is an out and out lie.

Rick, you believe this bullshit about illegal aliens? This is starting to turn into a farce. I believe I am losing repsect for you on this issue.

 

If you have a concern of the data, compare it to something you find reputable....I'd love to see it. I'm sure many numbers are often jaded in reportings of this issue. That's the nature of news on this issue.

Also it's almost impossible to figure out if the people are truely illegal immigrants or not. I will further note this in my last comments (below), in which the government even admits it doesn't know the clear picture, entirely.

Whom exactly are you referring to:FSM, Gopusa.com, AgapePress, CIS...?

What does your data infer?

Here's the thing...I don't necessarily believe all the numbers are perfectly 100% right, because it's again very hard to establish ones indentity if they don't wish to provide it, and also it can be exacerbated (due to bias).

Although it's not hard to believe there is a problem.

Again the point of the above quote is that the uncertainty of the numbers.

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000722.html

Deadcorn, you lose faith in me too quickly.

If you wish to see the most reliable source...here's one from Government Accountability Office.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

The numbers will all differ, but these are considered the closest (to what's KNOWN). Yet they don't shine a good light on the subject, regardless. But again, you must note that the data is, as it says:

 

United States Department of Justice

-Bureau of Justice Statistics

Victims and Offenders by Demographic Group, 1976-2004 Percent of - Rate per 100,000
population
Victims Offenders Population Victims Offenders
Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 7.9 8.8
Age
Under 14 4.8% .5% 20.5% 1.8 .2
14-17 5.0% 10.5% 6.1% 6.5 15.1
18-24 23.9% 36.5% 10.9% 17.1 29.4
25-34 28.9% 28.5% 15.8% 14.2 15.9
35-49 22.8% 17.3% 20.4% 8.7 7.4
50-64 9.3% 5.1% 14.1% 5.1 3.2
65+ 5.4% 1.7% 12.2% 3.4 1.2
Gender
Male 76.5% 88.7% 48.8% 12.4 16.0
Female 23.5% 11.3% 51.2% 3.6 1.9
Race
White 51.0% 45.9% 83.8% 4.8 4.8
Black 46.9% 52.1% 12.3% 30.0 37.3
Other 2.1% 2.0% 4.0% 4.2 4.5

What is left out of the statistics for known offenders are the unknown, or not convicted murderers. The "Other" stands for Hispanic, Asian, Norwegian, etc... they are known. I still cannot believe that someone with as good a mind as your own appears to be would fall for these statistics which you posted. They are just simply SO out of whack it certainly should have given you cause to sit back and consider.

Rick, you need to let this one go. You need to think this one through. Let it go emotionally, then use that intellect you've been blessed with.

 

In most cases they do not categorize Hispanics as a separate racial group in statistics (in general), but instead includes them with Caucasians.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_03.html
FBI

'Unknown' meaning they were not captured or they don't know whom they are. So from this data you can't really establish a clear number of any racial group because of the unknown, muchless annoint murders to a particular group within a race.

But this does give you a rough number to estimate. Say the unknown is equally divided among the only real two races annointed white/black (which includes hispanics). That would give 7,901 white/hispanic murder offender. now say half are done by hispanics and half are done by whites. 3950 per race...which is sort of exageration of how it's really composed (as you'll see me discuss a bit later on in this). Now half of the hispanic population is estimated to be illegal. Divided by two, and you get 1,975.

Roughly 200 away from the above estimate. Not a fact, but plausible.

^^Reconsidering this statement...
U.S. Census data that tells us that 91% of Hispanics consider themselves white. So there's lack of clarity in all data.

Rough estimates put the victims (per race) at:Hispanics is about 9.1 per 100,000,Black is 18.1 per 100,000, while the White murder rate is only 1.9 per 100,000.

Consider for a moment that most murder are done within ones race. Given the data from the FBI...and the general rate of victims per 100k...it's not impossible to conceive those numbers as close.

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Another thing...
Look at your stats. They're a percent from 76-04. Wouldn't that long-term (means) alter the percent in current levels? Obviously there weren't as many latin people here in 1976.

 

First off, who are "they?" Secondly, even if they did include hispanics with white, that still does not address the Dept. of Justice findings that most murders are done by the same race against the same race and that blacks are nearly six times greater than whites in the victim perpetrator category. So if, in fact, hispanics were categorized with whites that would make their culpability even that much less.

Hah!!! Precisely!!! So when you quote statistics from some goofy unreputable source that state that 95% of all murder warrants in L.A. are for illegal aliens, again, red flags should have gone off in your mind.

Hunh??? These are the latest long-time stats gathered by the D. o. Justice. Do you really think anyone at this site is going to buy into your proposal that the murder stats have changed that incredibly much in two some years?

Rick, you sound stubborn and willing to bend any fact available to support your biased views of illegal aliens. Sorry, bro, but you need some soul searching here.

 

I do a little more rough math in my head.

Given:

http://www.fedstats.gov/qf/states/06000.html

Now I must note that gov stats are not complete throrough on numbers. Often hispanic ring in as whites or don't register into the census due to fear. But regardless I'm going to get a similiar number to what I noted above.

Black Americans =37,909,341/100k=379*18=6823 victims
Hispanic Americans (and otherwise)=42,687,224/100k=426*9=3841 victims
White Americans=198,366,437/100k=1983*2=3967

Total victims per my calculations=14,631
Government stats of victims= 14,860

Now given that some illegal immigrants don't take part in the census (I rounded things off), and some often ring in as white or even black (mostly white, though)..... All you must do is reasonable divide the number within the hispanic community (since it's ESTIMATED to be 1/2 the hispanic population)...and you get 1,920.

Again, this is just shy by 200. Given the poverty of these communities, could it be 200 higher? Could these estimates be plausible? I think they're most likely around the numbers.

 

I hate facts like this... More Americans have probably been killed by vending machines than in the war!
But all Americans face the "risk" of being crushed by a vending machine... not all Americans are having gun fights with several Iraqis every day!

Just my 2 cents...

 

But just to set the record straight. Since you found stats ranging from 1970 to 2004 to be unreliable, here are some more stats supplied by the United States Department of Justice regarding violent crime and the Hispanic community from 2005:



During 2005--

"Violence against Hispanics age 12 or older most often took the form of simple assault (56%)."


"Hispanic persons age 12 or older experienced 15% of all violent crime and made up 13% of the population."


"Hispanics were victims of overall violence at a rate higher than non-Hispanics."


"Hispanics were equally to be victims of simple assault as non-Hispanics."


"Hispanics were victims of robbery and aggravated assault at rates higher than non Hispanics."

Again, all stats supplied by the United States Department of Justice.

So, quite to the contrary of those dubious and grossly unrealistic, not to mention incendiary, statistics you rushed into providing, we see that hispanic crime has VASTLY DROPPED over the last thirteen years, not increased.

Someone ought to be ashamed of themselves for this racist display of propagandized hateful statistics. Lies in their very teeth!!!

Use your head, Rick!!!

 

Then blacks, yes...than whites statistically, no. And I agree that most murders are done within the race, that's why my last post assumed through victims, rather than offenders. I thought that would be more rational-based.

The FBI backs that belief as well.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_09.html