Ah, but you forget the biblical chain of responsibility: how can they be saved unless they hear, and how can they hear unless someone preaches to them, et cetera.
I'm glad you brought that up, because it very starkly contrasts the humility of atheists with the arrogance of christians. An atheist would freely admit, "I don't yet know what happened before the big bang." (How the fish swim as one is a bit easier to answer scientifically.) Christians won't admit to any ignorance, they just say, "God did it." In addition to this, all the Christian does by positing God as the first cause is to take the problem one step further back, because he or she has no answer for the question, "What was there before God?" They may say, God is eternal, there was no before. So the atheist could do the same thing and say there was no before with the big bang.
OK, what part did you not read of what I wrote then? You didn't really say anything different than what I wrote - so you understand a Christian doesn't convert anyone.
That's an interesting theory, but in practice we see the exact opposite. Christians tend to say "this is what I believe." Atheists tend to say "this is what is." Look at this thread. The Atheists have been arrogant and rude. What is worse is that they are also shown themselves to be ignorant and barely literate. The Christians in this thread have been, as a group, significantly better on all of those points. I am an Atheist, but I feel a lot more connection to mature Christians than I do to immature Atheists.
The association in the Christian mind between the OT and the NT is manifest. What those who are not Christian do not quite understand is exactly what this relationship is. The OT is the Word of God, Jesus Himself quoted it's writings numerous times. IN fact, a simple explanation of which Books were included in the King James Version is precisely this use of Jesus of these writings. IN short, if Jesus either did not quote directly from a Book, or vicariously quote from one Book which itself mentioned another Book, then it was excluded. Many think that if a Book is not included in this august venture then therefore those of the reformation did not believe it was inspired. This is not neccesarily so... they just chose to err, if err they did, on the side of caution. That being said, the Christian looks to the OT as a schoolmaster, preparing the student for the Life ahead. And this Life is the fulfillment of the coming of our Lord. This is why the Christian is no longer bound by the conviction realized in Laws of Moses. We are free from their conviction by the Blood of the Lamb. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. This is what Paul is trying to explain when he writes: Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. By the fulfillment of the OT scriptures in Jesus Christ we find ourselves under Grace. And in this Grace we acknowledge that not God but rather the method He uses to bring us to our salvation has changed once again. So, Mr. Spencer, in this regard you are right in that the NT is the most signifigant inspiration to the Christian, his guiding light. But wrong to assume that the OT has no baring on our being. It's signifigance cannot be over-estimated.
Whether or not they convert anyone, they certainly play an essential role, and that's a responsibility Christians cannot believe in and stay sane.
Also Will, I do not know one atheist who claims to know what caused the creation of the universe. On that same question, I do not know one Christian who claims not to know. I'll wager that your experience is similar.
Why do you think that? I believe we play a role in speaking it, just like many others I know. No one I know is going insane. Our responsibility can only go so far, the conversion can not be forced by any human. If someone is forced to "convert" by a human then it isn't a true conversion. God has to do the conversion. So now knowing more about Christianity, do you see how the responsiblity has a limit?
I'm anti religion. Causes a lot of bother in my humble opinion. It makes many people happy and their lives fulfilled so I guess that's a good thing to come out of all the nonsense. In the meantime thousands of people are getting killed in the name of religion. Notting
I'm Catholic, but I dont consider myself a Christian. I'm quite offended by a large percentage of "Christians" actually. Mainly the ones who handle snakes or speak in tongues. This really irrittates me because I personally think that speaking in tongues is mearly make-believe. It also really irritates me when someone makes a joke about Catholic priests. Some have told me that Catholicism is fundamentally flawed, and that it attracts "perverts". I dissagree. I believe the reason Catholicism has been overshadowed as of late is because it is a very close-knit community. We have many group activities, events, and communal programs. Its not that the religion is flawed, its that sick-minded people are taking advantage of this system because it grants access to children. As for my work, I'm going to college for Physics. To fully understand Physics and to be able to accurately ratiocinate, you must be at the very least, mildly agnostic when working. If everyone decided that every unanswered question of the universe were mearly an act of God's will, we would not have made many of our greatest human discoveries. Thats not saying that God isnt the almighty creater, but as for the creation of the universe... I cant explain it as a physics undergraduate. I wont be able to explain it as a doctorate. I'll let my faith fill in the gaps until I've proven otherwise. In retrospect, even if we dont agree with each others beliefs, lets not let some 15 year olds post tear this forum apart. I ask that each of us respect one anothers beliefs, even if we dont agree with them.
I have one question about your post: Are you sure it is a large percentage? I just recently saw on the news the "snake-handlers" crap, never before have I heard of that in any Christian church. I have heard of snake-handling as practises of other cults out there and the church that was on the news sure sounds like a stupid cult to me.
It may interest exponent to know that the Catholic Church also has services wherein they speak in tongues. They are called "healing masses" and the priest prophecises, and touches the heads of the ailing with the power of the Holy Ghost wherein mostly they fall backwards to the floor just like any of the circus side-show crapola I have seen on TV. I went to one of these masses in Los Angeles. I believe that priest spoke to me through the power of the Holy Spirit and I have never forgotten what He did say. My aunt is now in her eighties and still works as a nun in New Jersey. She had been for some thirty years a mother superior in Jersey City and Newark - two damn tough towns. I asked her about this mass because I was so surprised to discover the RC's participating in such events and she just shrugged, being fully aware of the service.
This coming from someone who calls atheists uncivilized off the bat, and throws out a huge generalization about all people of the islamic faith. Nice job hypocrite. There are 80 million evangelical christians in the U.S. That's very scary. American taliban anyone? I recall the movie jesus camp..."are you willing to die for jesus christ our lord???" and a whole room full of kids said yes and started screaming. Disgusting.
Some athiests are pretty disgusting too. Jesus does not require that you die for Him. Only that you believe. Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? v31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...
Rub3x I agree with you that a lot of christians are big hypocrites. Look how many christians on this board talk about islam. Then they complain about how people talk about them. Christianity is just as annoying and possibly as dangerous as islam. Most christians don't even know about their own history. Christianity didn't spread because people thought Jesus was so good. Christianity spread by killing off people and natives who did not believe as they did, and by the people in power who became christian, and forced the citizens to become so. Then the missionares just only had to worry about brainwashing the people who was left alive. Now christians is losing their power in society, and all they have left is just brainwashing their children. The parents don't even let their children make a choice because they bombard them with their religion every day. May be not all christians do this, but about 95% do. Abrahamic beliefs (christians, islam, and even judaism) always was about force and violence. The only thing good about them might be the basic morals, (even though many of their followers do not follow them) but there were many religions that already created the same or similar morals long before them.
What about the person you didn't share with in the grocery store? Or the telemarketer on the phone? And on and on. You might be their only hope. Will God judge you for not sharing with everyone you possibly could?
LOL, I suppose you think that means they will strap on bombs like the palestinians? That Jesus camp movie was strange, but they still don't scare me, I am not afraid of that group of people what-so-ever. They asked if they would die for Jesus not kill.....