Questions Muslims don't like to answer

The number is closer to 400,000. I love how supporters exagerate.

 

837 million Hindu's in the world and none of them have ever flown an airplane into an American skyscraper.

But hey, they must be just as bad as the Muslims, right? I mean, everything is the same and there is no good and no evil as long as we put on our rose colored glasses and feel good about it, right?

No. There is good and there is evil. They exist, even if we choose to close our eyes to them. Moral equivalence occurs only in your own mind. There is a difference between shit and shinola.

 

use your head...think logically...find the truth before saying BS
Loose Change 2nd Edition Recut
Dylan Avery, Korey Rowe, and Jason Bermas bring you the most powerful 9/11 Documentary yet. Updated!!!!
Link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change

Guess what? people that produced that video ain't muslims...so no excuses

9/11 was an inside job....scientificaly proven

 

Realm:

If you can read, read 9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide.

I never cease to be amazed how far the moral equivalence crowd will go to avoid accepting reality.

 

Lmao.......

Hey man, I got a video produced by non-christians...so no excuse.

1/23 was an inside job....scientifically proven

Where's the bong? Just playing with ya....that tape is a bit boring and full of propaganda....looks like the same stuff I was shitting through before...ohh, I mean shifting.

I'd rather watch this,...it's more entertaining. Plus if your high it's a bit more excuseable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5taTXnzvwMw

 

the start is boring...but it contains all the info...that video changed the way I think of the Government lol.

 

That's cool...but personal I wouldn't base my views on a video.

 

That would clearly put you into the useful idiot category.

 

their is no need for me to act childesh...their is no benefit at all for argueing so yea...talking about making sense...I guess you just showed a useful place for yourself to be at right now
peace

 

What about colonialism and all the forceful change and killings that go with it? And the wars on the middle east? Is this what Jesus taught?

 

In defense of Mary, mother of Jesus (may Allah's peace be on her and on her son Jesus), she was indeed an untouched and chaste woman. That's a fact that we understand that from several evidence including from her question "how shall it be when no men touched me?" when the angels came to her to tell her that she was going to have a son.

Why is it too difficult for you to imagine a woman to be chaste and untouched? Are you sexist?

Moreover, you should also know two things:

1). that wombs are under the dominion of Allah (unless He disowns a womb). In the Qur'an we are instructed to "fear Allah and respect the wombs." So, be careful when you talk about a womb.

2). men's ejaculation is under the will of Allah too.

So when you are stating that Jesus was born from so and so, and Allah made it clear that she was untouched, you are entering into a discussion against His dominion which He tells you to fear. Moreover, you are backbiting Mary (may Allah's peace be on her) which again Allah is extremely against talking behind chaste women without having 4 people as witnesses.

I am trying to show you how your one little sentence argument can be harmful to you. But you didn't know. Allah likes those who repent.

 

I'd be great if people could have a discussion about anything they wanted and not be threatened.

 

Allah can kiss my big fat white butt.

 

Would you care to cite some sources for your information?


CIA World Fact Book Indonesia ( https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/id.html#People):

Population: 245,452,739 (July 2006 est.)
Muslims: 88%​

245,452,739 x 0.88 = 215,998,410 Muslims

CIA World Fact Book India ( https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html#People):

Population: 1,095,351,995 (July 2006 est.)
Muslims: 13.4%​

1,095,351,995 x 0.134 = 146,777,167 Muslims

CIA World Fact Book Pakistan (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html#People):

Population: 165,803,560 (July 2006 est.)
Muslims: 97%​

165,803,560 x 0.97 = 160,829,453 Muslims

Hmmm..... three countries picked from the CIA World Fact Book produced over 500,000,000 Muslims and I skipped the Arab countries.

Muslim Life in America: Patterns of Muslim Immigration (http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/muslimlife/immigrat.htm):

It is very difficult to estimate the precise number of Muslims currently living in the United States. Muslims tend to put the number somewhat higher than non-Muslim scholars and demographers; the estimated figures range widely - from around two million in one study to as many as seven million.​

So depending upon the study, there are between two and seven million Muslims in the U.S. Three million (the number I used) is not only the most often quoted figure I have found, but is on the conservative (e.g. low) side of U.S. Muslim population figures being cited.

http://pretoria.usembassy.gov/wwwhtpol_archive03.html

More than half of the world’s Muslim population (estimated at over 1.3 billion) lives in countries that are neither Islamic republics nor countries that have declared Islam to be the state religion. Thus, the majority of the world’s Muslim population currently lives in countries that either proclaim the state to be secular, or that make no pronouncements concerning Islam to be the official state religion.​

United States Commission on International Religious Freedom: The Religion-State Relationship and the Right to Freedom of Religion or Belief: A Comparative Textual Analysis of the Constitutions of Predominantly Muslim Countries March 2005 (http://www.uscirf.gov/mediaroom/press/2005/march/03082005/Study0305.pdf):

The global Muslim population is estimated at over 1.3 billion.5 Of this figure, approximately 1 billion Muslims live in 44 predominantly Muslim countries where Muslims constitute more than half of the population.6 Of the 1 billion Muslims living in predominantly Muslim countries, 28 percent live in ten countries that, according to the constitution, declare themselves to be Islamic states.7 Generally, a country with a constitutional provision declaring itself to be an Islamic state distinguishes itself by seeking to promote a broader, more significant role for Islam within that country. This role can manifest itself in a number of ways, and the practical ramifications of a constitution declaring an Islamic state are not uniform.

Each of the constitutions of the ten declared Islamic states also proclaim Islam to be the official religion of the state. In other words, all Islamic states declare Islam the official state religion. That said, there are an additional 12 predominantly Muslim countries that have chosen to declare Islam as the official state religion while forgoing the potentially more far-reaching impact of also declaring the country an Islamic state. Taken together, the 22 states that declare Islam the official religion account for 58 percent—or just over 600 million—of the 1 billion Muslims living in predominantly Muslim countries. As with the smaller category of declared Islamic states, the practical ramifications of a declaration of Islam as the religion of the state vary from state to state. Within these countries, there exist a range of legal provisions, policies, and practices in the political, social, religious, and economic spheres.​

So of the over 1.3 billion Muslims, only around 600 million (or 46%) live in a country that declares Islam as the official religion of the state. Also around 300 million Muslims live in countries where Islam is the minority religion (1.3 billion Muslims minus 1 billion living in predominantly Muslim countries).

World population and Muslim population country by country from http://www.factbook.net/muslim_pop.php:

Region		Country			Total Pop	% Muslim	Muslim Pop. 
Asia & Pacif.	Afghanistan		26,813,057	99.0%	26,544,926 
Eur		Albania			3,510,484	70.0%	2,457,339 
N.Af. & M.E.	Algeria			30,791,000	99.0%	30,483,090 
Africa		Angola			10,366,031	25.0%	2,591,508 
L.Am.&Carib	Antigua Barbuda		66,970		0.0%	- 
L.Am.&Carib	Argentina		37,384,816	2.1%	785,081 
Asia & Pacif.	Armenia			3,336,100	1.0%	33,361 
L.Am.&Carib	Aruba			70,007		5.0%	3,500 
Asia & Pacif.	Australia		19,357,594	0.1%	19,358 
Eur		Austria			8,150,835	2.2%	181,764 
Asia & Pacif.	Azerbaijan		7,771,092	93.4%	7,258,200 
L.Am.&Carib	Bahamas, The		297,852		0.0%	- 
N.Af. & M.E.	Bahrain			645,361		100.0%	645,361 
Asia & Pacif.	Bangladesh		131,269,860	88.0%	115,517,477 
L.Am.&Carib	Barbados		275,330		0.0%	817.00 
Russian states	Belarus			10,350,194	5.0%	517,510 
Eur		Belgium			10,258,762	3.6%	369,315 
L.Am.&Carib	Belize			256,062		0.0%	- 
Africa		Benin			6,590,782	20.0%	1,318,156 
Asia & Pacif.	Bhutan			2,049,412	5.0%	102,471 
L.Am.&Carib	Bolivia			8,300,463	0.0%	- 
Eur		Bosnia-Herzegovina	3,922,205	60.0%	2,353,323 
Africa		Botswana		1,586,119	5.0%	79,306 
L.Am.&Carib	Brazil			174,468,575	1.1%	1,919,154 
Asia & Pacif.	Brunei			343,653		67.0%	230,248 
Eur		Bulgaria		7,707,495	11.9%	914,880 
Africa		Burkina-Faso		12,272,289	50.0%	6,136,145 
Asia & Pacif.	Burma			41,994,678	4.0%	1,679,787 
Africa		Burundi			6,223,897	20.0%	1,244,779 
Asia & Pacif.	Cambodia		12,491,501	1.0%	124,915 
Africa		Cameroon		15,803,220	55.0%	8,691,771 
N. Amer.	Canada			31,592,805	1.5%	473,892 
Atlantic Ocean	Cape Verde		405,163		0.0%	0 
Africa		Central African Rep.	3,576,884	55.0%	1,967,286 
N.Af. & M.E.	Chad			8,707,078	85.0%	7,401,016 
L.Am.&Carib	Chile			15,328,467	1.0%	153,285 
Asia & Pacif.	China			1,273,111,290	3.0%	38,193,339 
Asia & Pacif.	Christmas Island	2,771		10.0%	277 
Asia & Pacif.	Cocos (Keeling) Island	633		57.0%	361 
L.Am.&Carib	Colombia		40,349,388	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Comoros			596,202		98.0%	584,278 
Africa		Congo, Dem Rep of the	53,624,718	10.0%	5,362,472 
Africa		Congo, Republic of the	2,894,336	15.0%	434,150 
L.Am.&Carib	Costa Rica		3,773,057	0.0%	0 
Africa		Cote d'-voire		14,762,445	60.0%	8,857,467 
Eur		Croatia			5,004,112	1.2%	60,049 
L.Am.&Carib	Cuba			11,184,023	0.0%	0 
Eur		Cyprus			744,609	33.0%	245,721 
Eur		Czech Republic		10,264,212	2.0%	205,284 
Eur		Denmark			5,352,815	2.0%	107,056 
Africa		Djibouti		427,642	94.0%	401,983 
L.Am.&Carib	Dominican Republic	8,581,477	0.0%	0 
L.Am.&Carib	Ecuador			13,183,978	0.0%	0 
N.Af. & M.E.	Egypt			69,536,644	94.0%	65,364,445 
L.Am.&Carib	El Salvador		6,237,662	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Equatorial Guinea	431,282		25.0%	107,821 
Africa		Eritrea			3,427,883	80.0%	2,742,306 
Eur		Estonia			1,423,316	0.7%	9,963 
Africa		Ethiopia		57,171,662	65.0%	37,161,580 
Asia & Pacif.	Fiji			782,381		11.0%	86,062 
Eur		Finland			5,175,783	0.2%	9,316 
Eur		France			59,551,227	10.0%	5,955,123 
Africa		Gabon			1,172,798	1.0%	11,728 
Africa		Gambia			1,204,984	90.0%	1,084,486 
N.Af. & M.E.	Gaza Strip		923,940		98.7%	911,929 
Asia & Pacif.	Georgia			5,219,810	11.0%	574,179 
Eur		Germany			83,536,115	3.7%	3,090,836 
Africa		Ghana			17,698,271	30.0%	5,309,481 
Eur		Gibraltar		28,765		8.5%	2,445 
Eur		Greece			10,538,594	1.5%	158,079 
L.Am.&Carib	Guatemala		12,974,361	0.0%	0 
Africa		Guinea			7,411,981	95.0%	7,041,382 
Africa		Guinea Bissau		1,151,330	70.0%	805,931 
L.Am.&Carib	Guyana			712,091		15.0%	106,814 
L.Am.&Carib	Haiti			6,964,549	0.0%	0 
L.Am.&Carib	Honduras		6,406,052	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Hong Kong		6,305,413	1.0%	63,054 
Eur		Hungary			10,106,017	6.0%	606,361 
Eur		Iceland			277,906		0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	India			1,029,991,145	14.0%	144,198,760 
Asia & Pacif.	Indonesia		228,437,870	88.0%	201,025,326 
N.Af. & M.E.	Iran			66,094,264	99.0%	65,433,321 
N.Af. & M.E.	Iraq			21,422,292	97.0%	20,779,623 
Eur		Ireland			3,840,838	2.0%	76,817 
N.Af. & M.E.	Israel			5,421,995	14.0%	759,079 
Eur		Italy			57,460,274	2.4%	1,379,047 
L.Am.&Carib	Jamaica			2,665,636	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Japan			125,449,703	1.0%	1,254,497 
N.Af. & M.E.	Jordan			4,212,152	95.0%	4,001,544 
Asia & Pacif.	Kazakstan		16,916,463	51.2%	8,661,229 
Africa		Kenya			28,176,686	29.5%	8,312,122 
Asia & Pacif.	Korea, North		21,968,228	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Korea, South		47,904,370	1.0%	479,044 
N.Af. & M.E.	Kuwait			1,950,047	89.0%	1,735,542 
Asia & Pacif.	Kyrgyzstan		4,529,648	76.1%	3,447,062 
Asia & Pacif.	Laos			5,635,967	2.0%	112,719 
Eur		Latvia			2,385,231	0.4%	9,064 
N.Af. & M.E.	Lebanon			3,776,317	70.0%	2,643,422 
Africa		Lesotho			1,970,781	10.0%	197,078 
Africa		Liberia			2,109,789	30.0%	632,937 
N.Af. & M.E.	Libya			5,445,436	100.0%	5,445,436 
Eur		Lithuania		3,610,535	0.1%	5,055 
Eur		Macedonia		2,104,035	30.0%	631,211 
Africa		Madagascar		13,670,507	20.0%	2,734,101 
Africa		Malawi			9,452,844	35.0%	3,308,495 
Asia & Pacif.	Malaysia		19,962,893	52.0%	10,380,704 
Africa		Maldives		270,758		100.0%	270,758 
Africa		Mali			9,653,261	90.0%	8,687,935 
Eur		Malta			375,576		14.0%	52,581 
Africa		Mauritania		2,336,048	100.0%	2,336,048 
Africa		Mauritius		1,140,256	19.5%	222,350 
Africa		Mayotte			100,838		99.0%	99,830 
N. Amer.	Mexico			101,879,171	0.0%	0 
Russian states	Moldova			4,431,570	0.2%	8,863 
Asia & Pacif.	Mongolia		2,496,617	4.0%	99,865 
N.Af. & M.E.	Morocco			29,779,156	98.7%	29,392,027 
Africa		Mozambique		17,877,927	29.0%	5,184,599 
Africa		Namibia			1,677,243	5.0%	83,862 
Asia & Pacif.	Nepal			22,094,033	4.0%	883,761 
Eur		Netherlands		15,568,034	5.4%	840,674 
Asia & Pacif.	New Zealand		3,864,129	1.0%	38,641 
L.Am.&Carib	Nicaragua		4,918,393	0.0%	0 
Africa		Niger			9,113,001	91.0%	8,292,831 
Africa		Nigeria			126,635,626	75.0%	94,976,720 
Eur		Norway			4,438,547	1.0%	46,161 
N.Af. & M.E.	Oman			2,186,548	100.0%	2,186,548 
Asia & Pacif.	Pakistan		144,616,639	97.0%	140,278,140 
L.Am.&Carib	Panama			2,655,094	4.0%	106,204 
Asia & Pacif.	Papua New Guinea	5,049,055	0.0%	0 
L.Am.&Carib	Paraguay		5,734,139	0.0%	0 
L.Am.&Carib	Peru			27,483,864	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Philippines		74,480,848	14.0%	10,427,319 
Eur		Poland			38,633,912	2.0%	772,678 
Eur		Portugal		10,066,253	0.5%	50,331 
L.Am.&Carib	Puerto Rico		3,937,316	0.0%	0 
N.Af. & M.E.	Qatar			547,761		100.0%	547,761 
Africa		Reunion			679,198		20.0%	135,840 
Eur		Romania			21,657,162	1.0%	216,572 
Russian states	Russia			145,470,197	10.2%	14,837,960 
Africa		Rwanda			7,312,756	14.0%	1,023,786 
N.Af. & M.E.	Saudi Arabia		19,409,058	100.0%	19,409,058 
Africa		Senegal			9,092,749	95.0%	8,638,112 
Africa		Sierra Leone		4,793,121	65.0%	3,115,529 
Asia & Pacif.	Singapore		3,396,924	17.0%	577,477 
Eur		Slovakia		5,414,937	0.2%	10,830 
Eur		Slovenia		1,951,443	1.6%	30,247 
Africa		Somalia			9,639,151	100.0%	9,639,151 
Africa		South Africa		41,743,459	2.0%	834,869 
Eur		Spain			40,037,995	1.2%	480,456 
Asia & Pacif.	Sri Lanka		18,553,074	9.0%	1,669,777 
Africa		Sudan			31,547,543	85.0%	26,815,412 
Asia & Pacif.	Suriname		436,418		25.0%	109,105 
Africa		Swaziland		998,730		10.0%	99,873 
Eur		Sweden			9,800,000	3.1%	303,800 
Eur		Switzerland		7,283,274	3.1%	225,781 
N.Af. & M.E.	Syria			15,608,648	90.0%	14,047,783 
Asia & Pacif.	Taiwan			22,370,461	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Tajikistan		5,916,373	85.0%	5,028,917 
Africa		Tanzania		29,058,470	65.0%	18,888,006 
Asia & Pacif.	Thailand		58,851,357	14.0%	8,239,190 
Africa		Togo			4,570,530	55.0%	2,513,792 
L.Am.&Carib	Trinidad and Tobago	1,272,385	12.0%	152,686 
N.Af. & M.E.	Tunisia			9,019,687	98.0%	8,839,293 
Eur		Turkey			66,493,970	99.6%	66,254,592 
Asia & Pacif.	Turkmenistan		4,149,283	87.0%	3,609,876 
Africa		Uganda			20,158,176	36.0%	7,256,943 
Asia & Pacif.	Ukraine			48,760,474	0.5%	219,422 
N.Af. & M.E.	United Arab Emirates	3,057,337	96.0%	2,935,044 
Eur		United Kingdom		58,489,975	2.0%	1,169,800 
N. Amer.	United States		278,058,881	3.5%	9,732,061 
L.Am.&Carib	Uruguay			3,360,105	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Uzbekistan		23,418,381	88.0%	20,608,175 
L.Am.&Carib	Venezuela		23,916,810	0.0%	0 
Asia & Pacif.	Vietnam			79,939,014	1.0%	799,390 
N.Af. & M.E.	West Bank		2,090,713	75.0%	1,568,035 
N.Af. & M.E.	Western Sahara		222,631		100.0%	222,631 
N.Af. & M.E.	Yemen			13,483,178	99.0%	13,348,346 
Eur		Yugoslavia		10,677,290	19.0%	2,028,685 
Africa		Zambia			9,159,072	15.0%	1,373,861 
Africa		Zimbabwe		11,271,314	15.0%	1,690,697 
		Total			6,036,972,881	0.0%	1,480,083,062 

Code (markup):

Also see Muslim populations in European countries: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm

So we may find different stats that differ to a degree about the exact Muslim population of some countries (e.g. the U.S.), the fact remains every single reputable source I have come across indicates that there are at least 1.2 billion Muslims, most sources say their are 1.3 billion and some claim that there are 1.4 billion. Which ever figure is correct really doesn't matter. The fact is Mia's figure of 400,000 Muslims is clearly wrong. Even if we are just talking about the U.S. reputable sources put the Muslim population at no lower than 2,000,000, which is five time larger than Mia's figures.

What should we conclude from all of this, exactly what I have been saying all along, the vast majority of Muslims lead a peaceful existence and pose no threat.

 

Unfortunatly to some Christians they see it as a holy duty (something that those who attack Islam here are trying to conveniently side step or play down). A great (in a very horrendous way) example of what some Christians are teaching is http://www.reformed.com/pub/polytheism.htm it should scare the living hell at of anyone who is not a Trinity "Orthodox" Christian. Here are a few choice and terrifying examples from their manifesto:

To argue that a nation can be a Christian nation while permitting the open worship and propagation of false religions is a repudiation of the first commandment. There is only one God-Jehovah. To permit the open worship of Baal, Marduk, Amon-Re, Krishna, etc. is to strike at the very root of God’s law order for society.
.....
Not only is political polytheism a rejection of the first commandment in the political and judicial life of a nation, but it also is an explicit denial of the moral-civil case laws set up to protect a God-honoring nation. In Deuteronomy 13:1-18, false prophets, seducers to idolatry, and cities given over to idolatry are all condemned to death.
.....
In a Christian nation people are not forced to go to church or to believe in Christ, but, the open practice of idolatry is forbidden. It is a capital offense (Dt. 17:2-7).
....
One of the primary lessons from the book of Kings is that righteous civil magistrates uphold true religion by enforcing the penal sanctions against idolatry, witchcraft, sorcery, astrology, etc.; that is, all false religions which by nature enrage Jehovah and defy His law order. Contrary to Christian socialists and certain paleopresbyterians, one does not observe these Old Testament godly kings establishing public schools, hospitals, welfare programs, orphanages, and so on. In accordance with the law and Romans 13:1-6, the righteous kings wield the sword against the wicked and praise the righteous. They execute and banish those who openly practice false religions; they obliterate all idols and the remnants of idolatry; and they completely destroy all idolatrous temples.
.....
.... a covenantal nation would require church membership in a Trinitarian orthodox Christian church for all judges and office holders.
.....
..... This passage no more forbids the use of sword by a Christian magistrate to punish idolatry, than it forbids a stick to Christian parents to spank their disobedient children.​

If that isn't enough to terrify you, do Google searches for "Reformed Christian" and "Christian Reconstructionist". That will show you just how peaceful and tolerant some Christian denominations are.

People ask what the solution to this is and there can be only one solution. Moderate Christians must actively speak out against the preachings of extremist Christians like those I quoted above and moderate Muslims must speak out against the extremist teachings being spread by the likes of bin Laden. We can not archive peace and understanding unless the moderate majority stands up to take back their religions from the extremists and the fundamentalists and at the same time reach out a hand of friendship across the religious divide.

For me this also means that non-Muslims like myself must stand up to defend our Muslim neighbors from hatred, oppression and violence just as our Muslim brothers and sisters must stand up to defend their Christian and Jewish neighbors from the same.

Those who are willing to open their eyes, hearts and minds know that both Islam and Christianity are religions of peace. It is up to us to prove this to the rest of the world and to reign in the violent, oppressive and/or intolerance perpetrated in the name of or by followers of our respective religions.

 

Search DP. Why do I always have to do the leg work for you guys. I added it up some time ago.

I did goof on the number though... That should have been 400 million, not 400,000... It's no where near, a billion, let along 1.6 billiion.

Again, it was a typo... Should have said, 400,000,000. Search DP, for the figure count based on a census reporting count of muslims world wide by country. It took me some time, and a calculator, but it was easy to arrive at a accurate figure.

The same can probably be said of alligators , assuming you do not get close enough to one.

 

You made the claim, you need to do your own leg work to support the claim just as I did my own research to support the claim of 1.3 billion Muslims. DP is not an authoritative source on this topic. Provide some authoritative source to back up your claims or you will have to admit that your claims are false and unsubstantiated.

It is really a shame that people don't have the opportunity to live with, work with and get to know peoples of different faiths the way I have. I'm certain that if people had first hand experience living and working with Muslims of different nationalities they would quickly realize how false the negative stereotypes of Islam and Muslims are.

I have stated before that fear breeds mistrust, mistrust breeds hatred, hatred breeds violence and violence begets more violence. I should have really stated:

Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds mistrust, mistrust breeds hatred, hatred breeds violence and violence begets more violence.​

Sadly people only know Islam and Muslims from the images they see on TV and what others tell them. Most people never have an opportunity to really get to know or work with Muslims on a personal level this has led to ignorance and fear about Muslims. It is not healthy. We can not make our nation more secure until we break the cycle of ignorance, fear, hatred and violence.

 

Not necessarily. She could still claim they are true, but the people reading the board would have no particular reason to believe the stats.

 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20977254-2702,00.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/27/wturk27.xml