Professor: Muslim men can't control themselves, women must adapt

Personally I always found the Honeymooners to be a more blatant example of abuse on TV. Ralph Kramden's constant "one of these days... pow right in the old kisser" comment seemed to be a very obvious form of verbal abuse and threat of violence.

One thing to look at about this issue is that in many ways Mohammad's teachings were centuries ahead of any other teachings and cultural norms at the time. The problem is that what Mohammad taught and what is being practiced are often two different things. Just like Christian society throughout the ages has often misrepresented Christianity to justify what were essentially secular customs we are seeing some primarily Muslim societies twist and misrepresent Islam and what is in the Quran to justify their ways (e.g. the Telaban, or the treatment of rape victims in parts of Pakistan). I'll refer back to the comments I quoted earlier:

When dealing with the Islamic perspective of any topic, there should be a clear distinction between the normative teachings of Islam and the diverse cultural practices among Muslims, which may or may not be consistent with them. The focus of this paper is the normative teachings of Islam as the criteria to judge Muslim practices and evaluate their compliance with Islam. In identifying what is "Islamic" it is necessary to make a distinction between the primary sources of Islam (the Qur'an and the Sunnah) and legal opinions of scholars on specific issues, which may vary and be influenced by their times, circumstances, and cultures.​

Another comment related to this from http://www.submission.org/women/care.html is:

One of the most abused expression in the Quran is the statement about "Ma Malakat Aymanukum", which translates word for word as "What your right hand possess". Many traditional Muslims have abused this statement. They have followed corrupted scholars who have innovated and fabricated laws that have no basis in the true Islam (Submission) and contradict the laws of God in the Quran.​

Yet another comment from http://www.submission.org/women/equal.html is:

Many of the Muslim countries who claim to follow Islam are treating women as a second class citizens, and some of these women accepted this situation thinking that is what Islam (Submission in English) is advocating. As mentioned previously, God, in the Quran made a complete spiritual equality between men and women, See 3:195.

Most of the degrading, humiliation and poor treatment in these Muslim Countries for women, came from the desertion of the Quran , and refusal of the word of God in favor of some fabrications written in Hadith books that put women on the same level with animals, monkeys , asses or dogs. ​

This last article is actually very interesting reading because it shows that like Christianity there are factions that have twisted the Islamic religion and that there is decent with the "Muslim" community. Clearly there are factions that claim to represent Islam that have really strayed from Mohammad's teachings of peace and treating women with respect. If we try to fight against all of Islam we make it very difficult for those Muslims who are trying to wrestle against those "Muslims" who follow the Hadith and have abandoned the Quran.

Really the biggest ally of those who teach tolerance is education especially literacy. If people are literate than they can read and learn for themselves with out those in power "spoon feeding" the masses only what those in power want the masses to know (like happened to Christians during the dark ages).

I think your answer lies in my comments above. Ignorance and poor education allows those in a position of power to teach a corrupted form of "Islam" that is intolerant and abusive to women.

 

You didn't answer my question. Where in the Koran are men commanded to love their wives?

 

KLB,

The main difference for me is that I never watched the honeymooners, I did used to watch I Love Lucy, therefore, I'm more familiar with that show.

As for the verse quoted by GTech: Sometimes a scripture gives instructions that are only supposed to be followed during a certain period (such as the journey through the desert to Israel by the people of Abraham, following their slavery in Egypt). Still, generally instructions laid out in a scripture last forever, or until abrogated. And while context is important, unless a scripture is one that is meant only to apply to a specific time period, or is abrogated, it generally remains valid... and some instructions -are- clear cut enough that short of abrogation or a time limit, the context is clear just from the passage it's self.

 

The word love appears 83 times in the Koran which is 1.3% of the verses.

http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/ot...ry=love&docs=text&sample=1-100&grouping=match

It never mentions loving your wife.

The word love/loveth appears 375 times in the Bible which is 2.17% of the verses.

Quite a contrast there. And that doesn't even begin to contrast how the two books talk about love.

 

Here are some quotes from the Quran. Again I will indent quoted text rather than using quotes to better differentiate between my quoting of posts from this thread and passages from elsewhere.

I have included two different translations of the following passage:

"Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think. " [30:21]

And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Undoubtedly in these are signs for those who reflect. (30:21)​

The next passage was found at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/marriage.html and is attributed to the Quran, unfortunatly like so many sources the exact citation was omitted. I include it only because USC (University of Southern California) is a source that others in this forum like to reference and thus would seem to be an agreeable source:

"Whoever marries a woman solely for her power and position, Allah will only increase him in humiliation. Whoever marries a woman solely for her wealth, Allah will only increase him in poverty. Whoever marries a woman because of her beauty, Allah will only increase him in ugliness. But whoever marries a woman in order that he may restrain his eyes, observe cautiousness, and treat his relations kindly, Allah puts a blessing in her for him and in him for her."​

This last passage seems to be pretty clear that one should not marry a woman for worldly reasons.

Treating women equally and with respect:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)​

This next bit is from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womenquransunnah.html it is intended to put the Quran's passages on this subject into the context of time and place (which is critical to understanding the Quran):

Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul. The Qur'an declares:

O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)​

The Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him) said, "Women are the twin halves of men." The Qur'an emphasizes the essential unity of men and women in a most beautiful simile:

They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187)​

Just as a garment hides our nakedness, so do husband and wife, by entering into the relationship of marriage, secure each other's chastity. The garment gives comfort to the body; so does the husband find comfort in his wife's company and she in his. "The garment is the grace, the beauty, the embellishment of the body, so too are wives to their husbands as their husbands are to them." Islam does not consider woman "an instrument of the Devil", but rather the Qur'an calls her muhsana - a fortress against Satan because a good woman, by marrying a man, helps him keep to the path of rectitude in his life. It is for this reason that marriage was considered by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as a most virtuous act. He said: "When a man marries, he has completed one half of his religion." He enjoined matrimony on Muslims by saying: "Marriage is part of my way and whoever keeps away from my way is not from me (i.e. is not my follower)." The Qur'an has given the raison d'�tre of marriage in the following words:

And among His signs is this, that He has created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them; and He has put love and mercy between you. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect. (30:21)​

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was full of praise for virtuous and chaste women. He said:

"The world and all things in the world are precious but the most precious thing in the world is a virtuous woman. He once told the future khalif, 'Umar: "Shall I not inform you about the best treasure a man can hoard? It is a virtuous wife who pleases him whenever he looks towards her, and who guards herself when he is absent from her."​

On other occasions the Prophet said:

"The best property a man can have is a remembering tongue (about Allah), a grateful heart and a believing wife who helps him in his faith." And again: "The world, the whole of it, is a commodity and the best of the commodities of the world is a virtuous wife."​

Before the advent of Islam women were often treated worse than animals. The Prophet wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women. He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And:"The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is."​

Again this came from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womenquransunnah.html I'd strongly recommend the reading of the entire article, but I did not feel it was right to copy their article in its entirety to here.

Another section that you should read from the USC website on this subject is "Misconception 3" at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html#HEADING3

 

I don't think he knows. But (and I'm sure not intentionally) he has confirmed that women are regarded as less than equal to men and that it is clear from the quran and hadith that it is acceptable to beat your wife in islam.

Impressive!

 

Many members here don't seem to like MUSLIMS...I am not a MUSLIM...But rape is common among poverty stricken area. Most of the immigrant in Europe, where it be Muslim or other, are very poor. I am talking about 1st generation. In US, if you go to some part of Chicago, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Miami, you know, who I am talking about. LOT OF PEOPLE HERE SEEM TO HATE MUSLIMS....stop being ignorant...ignorant is ONLY BLISS for SHORT TERM.

 

nobody hates muslims. I'm just not impressed with their religion.

 

probably because it's not in there. I'm just looking for verses. No fluff. If there's no citation from the Koran itself, don't post it.

It reminds me of the South Park episode with the pro and anti war side. Cartman is trying to figure out what our founding father's would do. Turns out that we allow protesters so that other countries hate our government instead of the people. It allows us to say one thing and do another.

On the one hand, the Koran wants you to beat your wife if she misbehaves and on the other it talks about loving your wife. Maybe the Koran confuses beating your wife into submission as a way of showing love.

It's very easy to say there's a contradiction but I think it all fits together if you redefine what love is. After all, wearing a burqua is a symbol of not being oppressed.

So women are property in Islam. I think that settles the debate.

 

Really, you still haven't accepted the fact that you both argue for and against a Trinity you do not even understand. You argue for it when it suits your twisted logic, and against it for the same reason.

Arguing with you is like trying to brush back the ocean... it's useless.

Shhh... here's a little secret.

It's for the more susceptible that MAY be mislead that you are so constantly being exposed. I don't think anyone really has any thought of changing you with "the facts."


Oh, and if the others here "argue the facts" why can't you accept them?

 

He was living with 12 men, may be women were not his cup of tea.

Because many of these attacks occurring daily go unreported and unrecognized, sexual assault can be considered a silent-violent epidemic in the United States today.

As is true of other violent crimes, it is difficult to get accurate estimates of the incidence of sexual assault. It is generally accepted that less than half of rapes are reported to authorities; some estimates are as low as 10%.(ref 3) Many factors contribute to under-reporting, including embarrassment, fear of further injury, and fear of court procedures that, too often, scrutinize and judge the victim's behavior and history.

The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics---4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan

RAPE STATISTICS

· In the U.S., 1.3 women are raped every minute. That's 78 rapes per hour.

· 1 out of every 3 American women will be assaulted in her lifetime.

· 1 in 4 college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.

· 78% of rape victims know the attacker.

· 31% of all victims develop Rape-Related Post Traumatic Disorder (RR-PTSD) sometimes in their lifetimes. Based on U.S. Census reports on the number on women in the United States, 1.3 million women currently have RR-PTSD, 3.8 million women have had RR-PTSD and roughly 211,000 women will develop RR-PTSD each year.

· Only 16% of rapes are ever reported to the police. In a survey of victims who did not report rape or attempted rape to the police, the following was found as to why no report was made. 43% thought nothing could be done. 27% felt it was a private matter, 12% were afraid of police response, and 12% felt it was not important enough.

Number of rapes in USA: 94635 RAPES A YEAR IN USA (This is the official number but many rapes are never reported)

The number of rapes has increased in three of the past four years, according to the FBI data. In all, rapes increased by .8 percent to 94,635 rapes, or about 750 more than in 2003.

If we consider that half the population in USA are women, this means that every woman has 1 in 1,562 chance of being raped.

 

http://www.womanabuseprevention.com/html/sexual_assault.html

It appears gworld doesn't know the answer either nor does he source his material

 

Hah! Speaking of hatred. Ever wonder why the middle east has blood running down the street? Thinks its because of all their love? Ever wonder why most muslim women are treated like such shit? Ever wonder why the shame becomes THEIRS in most muslim countries when a woman is raped???


They are ignorant throw-backs to the middle ages or beyond. And you their champion should be ashamed of yourself.

The problem with you is that one day, when you realize it is too late, you will find egg all over your face. But don't worry, it won't be the blood on their faces our boys and girls are finding as they walk down the streets of Bagdad picking up the bodies from those poor misunderstood muslims you're so keen on.

Ever wonder why 3/4s of the world's conflicts involve muslims?

 

Your post actually confirms my post that rape is not related to specific religion and it is a crime that is committed by people from different religion, class, race and countries.

 

That is correct. However, KLB has now established that Islam views women as property.

It is also a fact that women who are raped in Middle Eastern countries recieve the death sentence and the men go unpunished.

That makes it very difficult to get accurate numbers. So this entire argument is moot.

What do you think it's going to take to get Muslims to stop believing that women are property?

I'm willing to bet that if you look at the personalities of men who rape women you'll find that they don't view women as people. Those men who see women as equals are probably far less likely to rape them.

The other word I noticed Mr M used to describe women was as a commodity:

Do you feel that the above word would encourage men to have a high view of women and cause them to respect them?

 

In Africa, by contrast, celibacy has been much less accepted, and most reported sexual problems have been between priests and adult women. There was a scandal last summer after the National Catholic Reporter reported that priests had been raping nuns in parts of Africa.

The newspaper reported that the Vatican had known for seven years that priests were having sex with nuns, and in some cases raping them - apparently in part because in a continent where many people have AIDS, the nuns were viewed as safe sexual partners. In a handful of cases, nuns became pregnant and were encouraged by priests to have abortions.

http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/stories/040802_world.htm

In poor countries women don not participate in economy and have a lower economical position in the society which makes them a second class citizens and not equal to men. This is not a religion problem but problem that is caused by poverty and lack of development.

 

So you're saying that even though Islam teaches men to view women as property and as a commodity, it is not a religious issue that women are treated as second class citizens by Muslims and especially in Islamic countries.

Obviously it is not always a religious problem. But what do you do when it is?

Are you going to just shove your head in the sand when it comes to Islam's view of women simply because other people rape women too?

Or are you going to provide solutions?

 

You didn't answer my post, why do priests rape nuns? Is it because of Christianity view about women?
Read the views of Paul about Sex, marriage and women. He was many many cards short of a full deck. The Christianity, Judaism and Islam hold many of the same views.

Most people people in Islamic country have never even read the Koran, the same way that very few Christian in Africa have read the bible. People belief system and values are formed by their society and accepted norms and not some old books.

 

Obviously not. Priests also rape little boys. Seems to me it's a personal problem having to do with sexual frustration imposed by stupid Catholic law. The Bible allows priests to marry. Only the Catholic church forbids it. And that's why priests get all pent up and do stupid things. So in that sense, it's a religious issue specific to the Catholic church caused by one of their religious laws.

It has nothing to do with the Bible. With the Bible women are held in high esteem and it's the man's job to do certain things. If men fail and women have to do the job then it's to the shame of the men because the men failed in their God given duty. If a church hires a woman minister because no man could be found that was better qualified then that's to the shame of the men of the church that they failed in their duty. It's not men's duty to keep the women down. It's to raise themselves and the women up to do what God expects of them.

In corrupt societies when the men fail and are shamed they try to break down the women to be less than them rather than trying to improve themselves.

They don't have to. Every burqa is a real life lesson on the role of women in Islam.

 

A correction to the treating women as property debate. Until very recently in many predominantly Christian countries women became the property of men and had women NO property rights even here in the United States. Throughout Christian Europe it was customary for marriages to be arranged with no say by the woman until the last hundred or two hundred years. Marriage was not seen as an institution of love rather a business arrangement intended to strengthen or protect the economic, social or political standing of a family. Some sources on this are:
http://www.pop.umn.edu/~eroberts/eha2006.pdf

http://www.pflagsanjose.org/advocacy/hist.html

That shows pretty well how "enlightened" Christian countries were in regards to marriage.

and it continues at http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/geweb/PROPERTY.htm

http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/geweb/VIOLENCE.htm women abused and treated as inferior throughout the industrial revolution in England:

One thousand to fifteen hundred years before Christian "civilized" countries began to recognize the rights of women, the Quran is very explicit that the woman must agree to a marriage and there were documented stories upon which when Mohammad learned of a woman being forced to marry against her will he annulled the marriage. Also women were allowed to own property. The dowry which is given to the woman, not the woman's family according to the Quran is NOT a buying of a woman as some here would like to present, but rather a type of "insurance" policy that the groom must present to the woman to help prove he can provide for her. In Christian countries, the dowry was given to the woman by her father, but often ended up in the hands of the husband and if he was a poor money manager the wife commonly ended up destitute if the husband died.

So while people try to twist Islam on the subject of the treatment of woman pure Islamic teachings (e.g. from the Quran and NOT the Hadith) provided women with rights and protections that were not afforded to Christian women for another one thousand to fifteen hundred years. Those who haven't already should read the pages I have linked to throughout this thread on the subject of marriage and the treatment of women in Islam.