I'm glad you were able to communicate this. I believe it goes to the core of the issue, in that you are simply guessing and that you really do not have the knowledge. Words like "may have been saying" "may have made great sense". You are simply guessing. They are not irrelevant and are exactly what is taught in islamic schools. Again, you are not stating fact, but you own vision of how you wished it were. They are agreed upon every day and muslims take great pride that their teachings have not been distored (despite your best efforts to do exactly that) or changed. The interpretations were made by islamic scholars. That seems to have shut down that avenue, once figured out. It's really a shame you didn't spend time actually reading before taking issue. Not that it would matter. Denial has been a consistent theme. The goal of islam is world domination. I'd ask you if you actually knew what the word islam meant, but I doubt you would. But, I would not necessarily disagree with everything there, as I too have pointed out similar: http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=697343&postcount=125 Of course, these are all red herring distractors anyway. The bottom line is, the scriptures are there and your attempts to cover them up, then deny them, then claim they are taken out of context without the ability to show any context they could be fit in are all part of a failed debate. I'd say it lacked any degree of integrity as well.
You are doing no better. You are making absolute certain statements based on small snips taken out of context. I may be adding my own supposition but this is not an uneducated guess, it is based and things I have learned about Islam over the years. I just don't want to claim to know the exact meaning or intention of Islam like you are so willing to do based on such a small collection of phrases that are taken out of context. In some extremist schools yes, in all schools no. You are condemning the whole on the acts of the minority. This is fundamentally unfair and wrong headed. I'm sure you don't want Christianity judged by some of the extremist white supremest groups who claim to be Christian and claim that their moral superiority comes from God. There is no difference both extremist groups promote the killing/extermination of those they see as inferior. But neither group represents their religions as a whole. Not distorting is not the same as looking at the teachings as a whole and trying to adapt it to the realities of one's lives. There is no way Islam or any religion can be interpreted or practiced in the same way today as it was 1,000 years ago. The real fundamental denial is by you in refusing to acknowledge that you have taken small passages out of context of the whole and that without a full understanding of the whole scripture and their history you can not claim that those passages represent Islam or Koran as a whole. It is painfully apparent that you are not an Islamic scholar and that you do not truly understand the Koran. One does not need to have ever read the Koran to see this. Yes the passages may have been translated into English by Islamic scholars, however, this does not mean that those passages in and of themselves represent the Koran as a whole. This is a very important point that you fail to understand and have chosen to deliberately ignore. I don't care if Mohammad himself came back and translated his works into English. The moment you took short passages out of the resulting translation and tried to make them stand on their own, you will have taken them out of context and will be distorting what they are trying to say and would be using them to misrepresent what the Koran is saying as a whole. And this isn't the goal of Christianity????? I know a lot of Christian denominations who believe they need to convert the entire world to their brand of Christianity. So what if it is their goal, it doesn't mean it is going to happen nor does it mean that the majority of Muslims believe in using violence to achieve their goals. No they are not, its just that you don't want to hear things that question or bring doubt to your claims. We do not have an obligation to put them in context nor is it possible to put them into context in the space and time allowed by a forum thread. All we need to do is show that you have taken these passages out of context and thus have lost what is truly being said. Your blanket statements against Islam are based wholly on the reliance of taking a few passages out of context and then constantly repeating those passages as if the represent the scriptures as a whole. Others have shown very well why what you have stated is out of context and is thus an unfair and erroneous representation of Islam as a whole. In short your fear of Islam is based on irrational hysterics based on flawed assumptions.
What context? You've failed numerous times to address the context because you cannot do so. It is a failed argument, every time, because in order for you point to be valid, you have to know what context the verses belong in. At this point, it appears you are simply defending something for the sake of not looking any worse than you already do. I have condemned nothing. I've pointed the verses, that are translated by three different islamic scholars and they are so varying in minor degree as to be considered negligable. Therefore, it is with reason, that these are the verses of the quran and if the quran is taught at islamic schools, then these verses would be also. Your dhimmitude is worse than Carter's and that's saying a lot. Since Stein finally had enough of the lies, maybe you can take his place? You are certainly qualified. No one has done such. Another strawman. I've pointed out verses in the quran that call for the deaths of the very people the Congressman is taking an oath on, to serve and protect. It's so simple, even you could comprehend it, but you wilfull disregard for the truth, denial, red herrings and strawmen have all failed you. It's done all the time. You are just too blind to see it and more over are too afraid of being labled "politically incorrect" for being aware. It's a shame you have to hide behind the truth for such trivial reasons. Incorrect. You have lied, denied, obfuscated and attempted by any means necessary to cover up the truth. That is shameful. When you first came around, I thought you had integrity, though I didn't necessarily agree with your points. Not anymore. No one is claiming scriptures represent a whole. Another strawman. You just can't control yourself! Projectionism at it's finest. This definition not only fits you, but you refused to even read the passages I quoted before initially going off on a childish tirade. It's now come back to haunt you. No one has claimed they represent a whole. It's not that I fail to understand, it's fundamentally a lie. You are willing to lie for your cause, I am not. The context stands on their own merits. You've failed, time and time again, to even hint at the context they should be in. You cannot. You've eluded to the fact you cannot do so. In order to claim they are out of context, you have to know the context they belong in. I didn't think you know the translation, but thought I would ask anyway. You really don't know much on the subject matter at all, do you? It's one you *really* should brush up on. Denial, lying and obfuscation will only take you so far. You've presented nothing that has questioned or brought doubt to my claim. The book contains those scriptures. You make yourself a bigot by saying anyone who disagreed with your view was a wacko. You've defended something that is indefensible and you've sacrificed what little, if any, integrity you ever had in doing so. You have failed each and every time to show what context they belong in. Can I offer you some advice here? It's a failed strategy. You have no idea about the subject matter in general and failed to show any context they could belong in. And risked your credibility in doing so. This is a lie. I have made no representation of islam as a whole. No one has provided any context. Your last line is a lie as well. You've demonstrated you would sell your integrity and blatantly lie for your cause. You have no credibility. You should be ashamed of resorting to such in your failed debate as a last resort.
Those are indeed some of the verses of the Quran. However, those verses do not make up the entire teaching of the Quran. The Bible has been translated into English hundreds of times by many different scholars. I would like to point out some specific verses from the new testament. 1 Corinthians 5: 9-13 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." Mark 2: 13-17 13Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him. 15While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Luke 6:37 37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. In the first verse, it says not to associate with sinners among your number, but references a previous verse where you are not to associate with sinners at all. It also says that it is the place of each Christian to judge other Christians. The second verse states that it is those who are sinners that need ministrations the most. The third verse says that we should not judge others at all, but rather forgive. These three verses, while translated well into the English language, seem contradictory. It takes a reading of the bible as a whole to understand any of them in their full context.
I can’t put the verses you quoted from the Quran into full context, neither can KLB, and unless I misunderstood some of your quotes, neither can you. It is precisely because of the fact that none of us can put those verses in their full context that I do not simply accept that the message of the Quran can be understood from those verses. Therefore I do not accept that the Quran definitely instructs the congressman to commit violence against the nation or citizens of the nation he is sworn to protect.
Er, sorry, but just to be clear, are you referring to the Constitution of the State of Delaware? I'd rather know what you're asking me to read for sure before I go read it. ^_^
The problem is that GTech's verses are in context. If they aren't then demonstrate it. As for the Bible we are to judge righteous judgement. If somone is sinning then you should let them know. Not doing so would be like letting some kid smoke just because you do. But you should also be prepared to accept accurate criticism of yourself. Then you say "yeah, you're right. I should stop smoking too. I just don't want you to start and end up like me unable to quit." You should not hang around sinners if they influence you negatively. If you can influence them positively then more power to you. In other words, if you can hang around drunks and get them to drink less then great. If hanging around drunks causes you to drink more then you need to get away from them. It's very easy to say "out of context" but unless you can demonstrate the correct context then you're just being silly. It's just a red herring. It's not hard to understand the verses you're quoting. I'm still looking for the "just kidding" when the Koran talks about total slaughter of non-muslims.
First of all, I did take those verses out of their complete context. But even though a Line or two was all I was after, I included more of the surrounding text. Above, your interpretation of how we are to relate to others as regards to judgment is somewhat different from mine. My interpretation is that while it is permissible to judge another of your group according to Corinthians, Jesus says that it is far better for us that we not do so. This is an example of the difference between translation and interpretation. Even though we read the same translated verses, we may came away with different interpretations. As for whither the verses are in context or not: In my understanding, the context of a quote from a book, is the book. If one reads the quote without reading the book, the quote is thus read outside of the book, and is thus outside of it's context. "Out of context." If you have a different opinion or definition as to what "out of context" means, please let me know. Because in my opinion I have already shown, multiple times, that because the verses are here presented without the rest of the Quran, they are presented outside of the rest of the text of the Quran, and therefore out of context.
Which supports freedom of religion, a good right indeed. So, by referencing the preamble, what point were you trying to make?
No they are not in context and we have showed this nine ways to Sunday, so to speak. Josh's last phrases from the Bible were perfect examples of this. If one were to take any one of the three phrases he quoted by themselves, one would get a very different meaning then when they were taken as a whole. In the first case in and of itself, one could reasonably believe that it was okay to judge the moral fiber of others, and expel those deemed to be immoral. In and of itself this passage also does not give guidance as to what extreme one should carry the expelling. Does one kick the immoral out of their house, out of their community, out of their country? Does one throw the immoral out on the street in the winter and let them die? At the opposite end of the spectrum the third passage makes it appear that it is okay to hang out with any one we want and that it doesn't matter. It isn't until we look at the whole teachings that we get the idea of what is really meant and even then different people interpret what is meant differently. Again we don't need to put the quoted passages into their proper context to prove that they were taken out of context. Take some time to read up on the definition of the word "context": http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=context # discourse that surrounds a language unit and helps to determine its interpretation # the set of facts or circumstances that surround a situation or event; "the historical context" http://afronord.tripod.com/thr/dict.html # Context includes the political, social, historical, psychological, institutional, and aesthetic factors that shape the way we understand the performance event. http://cedar.web.cern.ch/CEDAR/glossary.html # The circumstances relevant to something under consideration. http://john.curtin.edu.au/society/glossary/ # The situation including the creators, their purposes, activites and circumstances that caused events to occur and records documenting them to be created and maintained. http://www.essex.ac.uk/linguistics/clmt/MTbook/HTML/node98.html # all the factors which systematically determine the form, meaning, appropriateness or translation of linguistic expressions. One can distinguish between linguistic context (provided by the preceding utterances or text) and non-linguistic context (including shared assumptions and information). http://www.adamranson.freeserve.co.uk/critical concepts.htm Everything surrounding the text: eg. the social, cultural, political, historical, artistic, financial, publication factors surrounding the text s production. And equally, the factors surrounding the reception of the text as it is read - your context as reader. As shown, by definition when one takes phrases out of a body of text and refers to them in and of themselves without the support of the rest of the text and the historical factors surrounding the writing of the text one is taking said phrase out of context and thus the full meaning and reference to what is being written about is lost. As a short passage something may say something entirely different than what is meant to be taken from a passage when it is read as part of a whole work. Since none of us in this thread are true scholars of the Koran none of us are in a position to judge the Koran based on the quoted passage, which have been taken out of their proper context. By the way just to show how peaceful the Bible is, Read this: Deuteronomy 20:16 GOOD NEWS TRANSLATION: But when you capture cities in the land that the Lord your God is giving you, kill everyone. New International Version: However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. New American Standard Bible: Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. King James: But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. God's Word: However, you must not spare anyone's life in the cities of these nations that the LORD your God is giving you as your property. More great passages are forth coming, but if I were a Muslim and read that passage from the Bible I would be pretty damn worried if an a President who swore an oath on the Bible sent an army into my land.
Actually, you do. No matter how much text you throw at it or how many times you repeat it, to claim they are out of context means you have to be aware of what context they belong in. They are in context. They describe actions that muslims must take. Once again, your own bigotry and intolerance of others views has been the central focal point of this childish denial. For reference, since you probably never read them anyway: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html 005.051 - 52 SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. SHAKIR: But you will see those in whose hearts is a disease hastening towards them, saying: We fear lest a calamity should befall us; but it may be that Allah will bring the victory or a punish ment from Himself, so that they shall be regretting on account of what they hid in their souls. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html 009.005 YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 009.006 SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. 009.029 - 30 SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! 009.033 SHAKIR: He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse. (ya think?) http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html 008.012 - 14 SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. SHAKIR: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil). SHAKIR: This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire. Note, at each link, the scriptures are translated by three individual scholars. They are already in context. I welcome you to offer any other context then what they read. It is because they are in context, that you claim they are not. You've offered no alternative other than to stamp your feet and shout out "they are out of context." Put them in context. Often times, when someone uninformed comes around to find moral equivalence between the Bible while trying to defend the calls for death in the quran, they quote the Old Testament. An age old tactic. I often direct them here, to put them in context. Where have you directed someone to put them the verses above in context?
No we don't. No they aren't and we have proven this by proving what the definition of "context" is. I'm sorry if you aren't able to understand such a simple concept as "context" but it is painfully obvious that you either: a) are refusing to acknowledge what "out of context" means; or b) are incapable of understanding such a simple concept. Since I do not think you are stupid, I tend to think the problem is the former rather than the latter. Rather than admitting the truth you are stubbornly twisting writings and ignoring solid evidence just to be able to justify what you WANT to believe. I also noticed how conveniently you are ignoring the passages from the Bible that have been brought up. In my case the Bible was pretty clear that in the fact that it is saying to kill everyone in the cities of the enemy. As a matter of fact digging through the Bible one finds it to be an extremely violent group of writings with God killing or instructing his followers to kill non-believers or the enemy on a regular basis. Like I said from this point forth I'm going to pepper this thread with biblical passages that preach violence and I'm quite certain I'll be able to dig up enough short passages that in and of themselves promote violence to not only get my point across, but be able to keep posting new examples for quite some time to come. When phrases are taken out of context as you have done and I will be doing for the next few days, the scriptures of the Koran and the Bible can be made to look like very violent writings that promote the killing of others. It is only when one looks at both sets of scriptures in their entirety and puts the individual writings in the context of the time and place they were written in is one able understand what one should take away from those writings. You have no more basis to claim that Islam and the Koran is violent and preaches our destruction than a Muslim could take a few select passages out of the Bible as proof that we want to wipe out their culture. As a Christian, it really pains me to have to dig up and post every phrase or sentence where the bible instructs followers to kill or commit violence on others, but I find your hatred and intolerance to the beliefs of others to be not only anti-Christian, but extremely offensive. Bringing to light every violent passage I find in the Bible may be the only way I can get you to see how badly something can be skewed when passages are taken out of context as you are doing with the Koran. For the past 1,500-2,000 years countless wars have been justified and millions upon millions of people killed, enslaved or tortured by individuals like yourself who took passages from either the Koran or the Bible out of context and used those passages to justify their acts of violence on others. Civilization can not become truly peaceful until people like yourself stop spewing hatred and justify their actions by taking holy scriptures out of context. We all must learn to live and let live and stop trying to find ways to make the scriptures preach violence.
You are welcome to bring up any passages from the Bible you choose to find your moral equivalence. I believe I even predicted you would do such at the beginning of the thread. Break out your Old Testament. It will not change what is in the quran. It will not change that violence is committed every day in the name of their "god" using these scriptures. You want to sweep it under the carpet of political correctness, like a good dhimmi. Sorry it won't work. Despite your best efforts to prevent people from being informed, people are well aware. Reporting the post because you can't win the debate won't change it either. Yeah, I screen captured you and couldn't help but laugh So break out your Old Testament. I'll break out well over a thousand bookmarks of islamic violence over the last few years that you couldn't sweep under the carpet of "political correctness" in a million years. You can keep pretending there isn't a problem and I'll keep showing you there is. Sound like a deal?
This does not have a DAMN thing to do with political correctness and you know it. It has everything to do with you spreading hatred in these forums and cloaking them in patriotism and Christian values. Your actions in these forums spit on the Constitution and Christianity. I am not politically correct by a long shot. I am simply a decent individual who tries to show a little decency and respect to others and have grown tired of seeing you make baseless attacks against those of religions or political persuasions that you don't like. You insult people in these forums on a daily basis, yet seem to be totally immune when others have been banned for far less. If there were any balance in these forums you would have been banned long ago for the hatred, intolerance and vicious way you attack those who you disagree with. You berate people and make personal attacks against people on an almost daily basis and I am a ashamed that you are first the American some of our friends from around the world see in these forums or on the web period. You shame Christianity and Christian values of love and tolerance. I am ashamed that for many of our foreign friends you are their first impression of Americans. I find you not only offensive, but un-American and un-Christian in every way possible. I'm quite certain many on this forum feel the same way but don't stand up to you because of the immunity you seem to posses here. Very simply you should have been banned along time ago if you were held to the same standards as others in this forum. This isn't about political correctness, it is about showing a little respect to your fellow man, something you seem completely incapable of doing and the moderators seem to care less.
It has everything to do with it, as well as your own brand of bigotry you started off with. To the effect "no one should take issue and anyone who does is a religious wacko." You couldn't take that someone had a different view then you did. While I accepted yours, Josh's, Rick's and several others who had no issue, you could not deal with the fact that I was aware (informed, unlike you) that the very book being affirmed on calls for the death of the people the Congressman was affirming to protect and serve. When challenged on it, you resorted to denial, then later to the "out of context" argument without even a clue about what context it should be in. I won't argue your decency. Other than willfully lying for your cause doing everything you can to cover up the truth, I don't know you. What other religions have I attacked? Find one. Just one other. Either you are lying (again), or are just assuming. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hello pot, I'm kettle. You've exhausted yourself through deceit, lies and political correctness for the past ten or so pages with insults. You came out swinging at me. When I'm attacked, I will bite back. You did just that, and exposed your own hypocrisy of doing the very same thing. One standard for you and others, a different standard for me. I could care less what you find. You are a liar, a bigot and have gone to great lengths to cover up the truth and deny my view because it didn't fit yours. I hold no immunity here. I've had infractions before and they were deserved. When you deliberately lie about me, and I call you on it, and like a sissy boy run to the moderators to report a post, perhaps they took the time to read and see both sides of the story. In reality, you seem to believe you are immune with your own attacks on me, by kicking me in the shins and running to tell the moderators that lil' ol' GTech is picking on you. What a laugh! For doing no less than you've been doing all along. Such double standards you hold. Respect is earned. When you come out swinging at me like you did, then resort to lying, name calling and generally crying like a baby, don't expect to earn any respect from me. I've treated you with the same hostility you've afforded me.
It was to drive home a point about the way certain people behave in this forum. I have no problems with differences in opinions, I have a problem with hatred and the constant insulting of other people, their religion or their politics. You are about the most offensive person I have met on any forum I participate in. You insult people on almost a daily basis. You don't debate, you attack with baseless insults and derogatory name calling/labeling. I can respect different political and religious opinions, I can not respect You accept nothing and respect no one who disagrees with you. You like to try and put people of different political/religious persuasions from you in the worst possible light and you use inference to accuse people of being anti-American or treasonous when they question your politics or our government. A case in point is the way you try to label John Kerry a traitor and by association all Democrats. You take every effort to twist even the slightest clip of news or phrase of text into a way that suits your agenda. You are doing it here by taking passages of the Koran out of context and you did it in another thread trying to accuse the Democrats of committing treason for talking with our advisories in the Middle East (one must talk to one's enemies to find a way to peace because one doesn't need to make peace with friends). You are not informed, you only want to push your beliefs on others and grab at any little thing that you THINK supports your views of the world. You are not an Islamic scholar and you have made the tragic mistake of thinking you can understand a religion based on a few highly selective passages. You are not representing the true Islam and anyone with the slightest bit of objectivity can see this. Again you can not discuss you can only insult and make baseless claims. I do not lie nor do I cover up the truth. It is you who distort the truth and twist things to suit what you want others to believe. This isn't a matter of a difference of opinion. This is about you being so filled with hatred or fear of another culture that you will blindly attack anyone or anything that tries to defend that culture or defend simple tolerance. You are so convinced that Muslims are out to destroy you that you can not see past your own fear. I do not know who has twisted your mind in such an awful way. But as Franklin Roosevelt said, you have nothing to fear but fear itself. Your fear and hatred of Islam will not protect you. If the Koran really does teach what you claim it does (and I don't believe it does), your only hope lays at the feet of moderate peace loving people who are willing to (as you would say) twist Islam into something more peaceful. Are there passages in the Koran that say to kill non-believers? Yes I'm sure there are, just like there are similar passages in the Bible. The only chance for hope civilization has is if the Islamic and Christian cultures can bridge their differences and learn to live in peace. This means peoples of both religions must stop looking for the worst in the two religions and instead look for the best in the two religions. Both the Bible and the Koran have very violent sections, but they both also teach tolerance and peaceful coexistence. Again baseless personal attacks. This is all you know how to do. Attack back? Please, you attack everyone who enters a thread in disagreement with you. You number one means of "debating" is to insult others, their religion or their political party. You are in capable of have a discussion on the merits -- any neutral observer can see this. Don't go play the victim. The only difference in standards here is that you are allowed to get away with what others in these forums have been banned for. You are a bully and attack people with personal insults on a regular basis. When you are called on it, you pretend to be the victim. Again personal insults, any one that knows me knows that I try to maintain the highest integrity. Normally I wouldn't allow my self to stoop down into the gutter to delve into a discussion like this, but I have become so offended by you, the way you treat others, that I can take no more. I don't want our friends from other parts of the world to think that you represent the beliefs of all Americans or are in the slightest way a representation of America or Christianity for that matter. You have more immunity here than most. That much is blatantly obvious. I don't lie about you are anyone else. Your posts speak for themselves, I don't need to make anything up, nor would I. Oh please give the victim line a break. I wouldn't be here right now and I wouldn't have entered this thread if I hadn't grown completely disgusted with the way you attack Islam and other members of this forum. If want to call me names, or attack my political beliefs, I can ignore you, but I can no longer stand by while you attack others and the religion of others in your hateful ways. You treat everyone who has a different political or religious persuasion from you with hostility, don't pretend I'm special.