20 elementary school children plus 6 adults shot dead by a guy with a gun

Ya know, Rob: I respect your perspective. I know you have a long history with guns. I got nothing against that, nor do I subscribe to the theory of taking away guns.

Still I come from a different perspective. A couple of items:

1. The NRA has basically scared politicians. Any kind of legislation about guns that has the purpose of curbing violence has been off the table for about 18 years. Totally off the table. It was never addressed, mentioned, brought up, etc.

Then some very ugly examples of mass killings occurred. One after the other. Different states, different environments, lots of kids. Types of environments where people don't expect shootings at all.

That only serves to bring to boil the reactions to about 18 years wherein one group managed to change the nature of all debate and discussion and move guns from one perspective to what in some cases is an extreme perspective: I point out the law in Florida, which the state is still trying to get enforced: It forces docs and pediatricians to shut their mouths about guns.

Okay....the pro gun politicians want to favor guns over little kids. That takes it to the level of extreme.

I'm sure the politics will get rough and tumble. Frankly I think the right wing has been playing games of sorts with a couple of big issues lately. They made big stinks about the fiscal cliff issue...but if you look at the end result it was less favorable to cutting costs than if they had made a deal between Obama and Boehner in mid to late Dec. I believe what surfaced is that the right wing simply cares a lot more about tax rates and particularly well off people's tax rates than any single other issue.

The same thing occurred on aid for folks in NJ, NY, and Ct after Sandy. The House could have tabled discussion for GOOD. The Republicans have the majority. It was in their power. They did not. They were so shamed and called out by other Republicans.

The vote occurred. The house voted for an aid package that was almost exactly what the Senate voted for. In other words, GOP right wingers gave a lot of wind to cost cutting. They did not follow through.

All talk. No action. In the end, they got nowhere's near what they "say" they want. Lot of hot air.

I frankly believe in a democracy, you engage in negotiations and you end up compromising.

Of course I don't know how this thing is going to play out. There is a lot of extremism on the right, as I see it. On the left, at the least the entire side has been mute...or completely out of the picture for years as the realist politicians wouldn't deal with it.

But if the pro gun forces really wanted to make a deal they would jump in, negotiate a lot of points and come out with a compromise.

OTOH: there could be the grotesque examples of extremism such as the above where people start comparing Obama to Hitler. I've actually seen heavy conservative friends of mine degrade that language. Here its sort of par for the course. That speaks to the level of brain power in this place.

 

You forgot to mention the Koch Brothers, the Tea Party racists, the Illuminati, Karl Rove, Grover Norquist, and the free masons.

Really, any conservative political position supported by politicians in this country must be the result of some shadow government conspiracy, where as any liberal political position supported by politicians is simply them carrying out the will of the people. I think you need to reacquaint yourself with the definition of the word "demagogue".

Some examples of demagoguery:

And from your previous post:

Of course no demagogue can complete a post filled with BS and hyperbole without wrapping it up by denigrating dissenting viewpoints as demagogic:

Funny how the left had no problem comparing Bush to Hitler. For years, the moonbats went on about how Bush must have planned the 9-11 attacks.

At least the pictures I posted of Stalin and Hitler using children to manipulate the electorate have some comparable value based in fact, instead of nonsensical hyperbole talking about how conservatives hate children. to match that kind of nonsense, I'd have to be filling my posts with this type of imagery:

 

I love how the lib tears flow if you say a single negative thing about a democratic politician..

Wow, the hypocrisy...

 

David- i'm quite serious when i say i am as much or more interested in seeing this school shooting horseshit end than is the president. But by training I'm a stats guy, and his idea of "solutions" looks remarkably like he's just implementing things he has longed to implement notwithstanding the fact that they fly in the face of statistical proof that they are either ineffective or even counterproductive.

Sample 1: His proposed solution in hoping to model gun laws on those in Chicago.
We lose more people every year to murder in Chicago than we do in Afghanistan. If he was serious, would he model our gun policy after a place that is churning out more bodies than an active war zone? Does that make an iota of sense?

Sample 2: Gun free zones
Since the creation of gun free zones, all but one mass shooting has happened in a gun free zone. His own children attend a swanky private school that teaches the children of the rich and powerful, and that school has armed guards. I have no problem with that, i just have a problem with him pretending that same kind of protection in the schools of OUR children would be hazardous. It keeps his children safe. Why would it not work for ours?

No person who is on his way to commit murder, the greatest taboo of any society, is going to be turned away from his objective because a sign tells him he is not allowed to bring a gun onto the premesis. Gun free zones set up a shooting gallery for the warped cowards that tend to do school shootings. The concept was logically flawed to begin with and now has about 2 decades of proof that it doesnt work. Why do our politicians ignore that point? Because the NRA pointed it out?
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Casting those on the right as pro-murder...
...is a manufactured villification that's as specious as it is counterproductive. We have children too. The left is not the only side that loves their children and others. When they get off their fucking high horse and decide to have a discussion about how to realistically address this awful problem, the right will gladly talk. We want it to change. It will not be cured by turning the nation into Chicago, or by disarming responsible gun owners, or by fairy dust fixes like magic signs that repel evil spirits.

We need changes that actually address the issue in the real world, not feelgood legislation that gives anti-gun people an orgasm but leaves children at risk.

 

When you consider that inner city crime is nearly always Democrat on Democrat, why not give some serious thought to disarming Democrats? If the Democrats could be disarmed, truly disarmed of their legal and illegal weapons, chances are we could cut gun violence in this country by 90%. This is common sense legislation that any politician who loves our children should get behind. We should start there.

 

Hitler's Use of Children for Propaganda

"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."
-Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler, Publ. Houghton Miflin, 1943, Page 403

 

Rob: I'm sure the school deaths bother you. Its tragic, where ever it occurs. Did you know that 99 Americans died by gun shot on 1/13 -1/15. You can read about them here Over 1000 Americans have died by Gun shot since the tragedy at Newtown, and some at school sites.

I doubt highly there is a Chicago method for gun control. But too many shootings occur in big cities. In the last year deaths by shootings in NYC and deaths by shootings in DC and its suburbs are way way down from the previous year and years. Recently something has been working in those cities. They do a lot of the same stuff that they are doing in Chicago. Some things work some don't. They try different things. Times and conditions change.

While this forum is a cauldren for the most radical and extreme positions of the right wing and it has exploded with the typical extremist view of the day--comparing Obama to Hitler and referencing and connecting to racial references...as is typical of the extremist position.....others around the nation are acting differently.

Hate based extremism turns off the general population. I know the tea party extremists can't see that as they seem to be blind followers of a losing cause, but here is what occurred fairly recently:

Obama won the general election
Republicans lost seats in the House and the Senate. Two ultra whacked out senate tea party candidates lost the senate for them totally alienating women with views that are more representative of taliban and al queda than modern American folks.
Republicans, probably are either not serious about cutting expenses and are far more serious about protecting the tax rates of the very rich. They had or were close to a deal on the fiscal cliff in mid to late Dec with cutting govt costs and blew it. The deal Mitch McConnell made had less expense cuts than the deal Boehner and Obama had a week or two earlier.
Republicans wasted time and showed no compassion for the folks in the Northeast who suffered from Sandy. It took members of the GOP with brains and a sense of responsibility to shame them to act. Basically the full Senate program to aid the victems of Sandy was passed. Basically no cuts. The GOP doesn't engage in negotiations. In engages in blackmail and doing nothing.

Then they look like American hating scumbags. The case of Representative Palazzo of Southern Mississippi is the prime example. His own constituents were revolted by his initial vote against aid for the folks in NY, NJ, and CT. The GOP was shamed into allowing full votes on the aid to Sandy program. It passed with tiny tiny cost cuttings.

Extremists are mostly turning off the majority of Americans. They are on a serious losing streak.

Meanwhile on gun control and limiting gun violence in America, from my perspective its been a twisted issue for too long....about 15-20 years. Basically the NRA took it off the political table by threatening people who voted against their interests. The horrors of NewTown changed that.

Now there are monied interests that are going to do the same thing as the NRA and its friends...only they are going to take the other side on the political front. On the pure in-house GOP side the main street group is raising money to support moderate republicans. The tools that have been in use from the political extreme right wing are now being used by anti extreme right wing groups.
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As with the extremists: I hope you fellas enjoy your circle jerk posting extremist references between Hitler and Obama and immediately jumping into racial code words and references for shootings. Most of the nation finds it grotesque. But its good for you guys...and it simply adds fuel to the losing streak. Keep it up.

 

Koch brothers! Grover Norquist! The Free Masons! Guns! Racists!



Circle jerk indeed. Had I known you spoke for most of the nation, I would have simply asked you for my opinion. Here I was under the impression that most of the nation was sick of liberals calling everyone who disagrees with them racists, especially considering that less than 35% of Americans polled hold liberal views.

 

Trust me, David, if these shooters were NRA members or Tea Party voters... MSNBC might have mentioned it by now, doncha think?

Vilifying guys that are just trying to protect a tenet guaranteed in the bill of rights is simply unproductive. We could look at realistic fixes, but instead Obama, Feinstein and company ignore reality and go after items that were already on their political agenda while ignoring the failure of concepts they've tried. The previous assault weapons ban did nothing per Bill Clinton's own administrative depts who studied it. The gun free zone is an obvious failure. When the horse is dead, they need to get off of it, quit just playing to their base... and look at ideas that will WORK instead of schemes long since proven to be failures.

 

Nailed it. Crazy how the Liberal mind works..

Exactly how Obama got re-elected in the first place... Pretty pathetic.

 

This tape includes two 911 calls. The cops dont arrive in time for either emergency, but in one case the occupants are scared but armed. In the other... Scared, then dead.

There's a cop narrating between them. His answer... Everyone old enough to carry a gun should have one. He sorta got tired of arriving and seeing what happened to the occupants of those oh so safe gun free homes.
.
[video=youtube;Q6kpDSKzDQY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6kpDSKzDQY[/video]

 

Notice how casually calm the 911 caller is in the first part of that video until her assailant enters the house. She carried that eerie blind faith in the idea the police could protect her all the way to the grave. She probably voted for Obama.

In other news, the authorities are taking affirmative steps to solve the problem:

I know I feel my kids are safer when I read a story like this one.

 

They'll get MY Hello Kitty bubble gun when they pry it from my wet soapy hands....

 

Owned.



........Again.

 

Enjoy:

 

What a great video. Morgan gets his ass kicked by two hot girls. Musta been his fantasy!

 

Since the tragedy at Newtown, aka 12/14 1243 Americans have died by gunshots: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

That is a big issue. The NRA and tea party radicals see no reason to address this issue. They'd rather whine about Obama going to Hawaii over Christmas (and returning to DC to deal with the stupid artificial fiscal cliff issue the GOP caused than pushed back).

Its a shame how the most radical elements in America have hi jacked issues and couldn't care less about the consequences.

 

I wanted to comment on the YouTube video, but YouTube gives me a really annoying popup to "Get a Better Name on YouTube". Anyone else seeing that?

 

So Earl... you're going back to blaming people that had nothing to do with the shooting as if their possession of a weapon somehow contributed to the violence. That defies reality. Taking my guns away will not in any way affect the outcome of Sandy Hook. Taking the guns from other law abiding citizens wont either. That'd be like taking MY carkeys cause YOU drove drunk.

Arming people at the schools might help though. It worked at Pearl MS.

Getting rid of those fantasy gun free zones might help too. They attract shooters. Why are the rich and famous and their kids armed with guns, but a sign should be sufficient for the "peasants" children.

Why did Feinstein exempt herself and her colleagues from her proposed ban? If it's so safe, shouldnt they WANT to be included?

Open your eyes... they dont believe their own rhetoric. You're endorsing legislation that would disarm many people that have rightfully used guns in defensive situations.

I already heard from that drooling halfwit Boblord that getting women hacked up by machetes is an acceptable outcome as long as we get rid of the weapons... which is exactly the result the girls in Australia got from letting their government disarm them. Right now, a female in the US willing to arm herself can take out even the biggest baddest home invader. After a little "sensible gun control" she might find she's left to take on an armed criminal by hand. Do you really want that?

 

Rob: 1243 Americans were killed by gunshot since 12/14 the Newtown tragedy. About 30/day. A Newtown every day in America.

That is a big issue. Its also deeply complex: 2nd Amendment issues, somewhere about 250-300 million guns in the US in private hands currently. Big differences between guns in urban areas and guns in rural areas...although maybe not.

I'm a believer in the process of negotiation. Sides participate with depth, not attacks and threats. Negotiations ensue. Issues and concerns get flushed out.

You try and come up with solutions. If the first solutions don't work you change them or refine them. You try and solve the problems. Its something that occurs in personal life, in businesses and in governments.

I felt a while ago that the supporters of guns: I'll call them the NRA and its friends hijacked the issue about 15 years ago or longer and its been off the radar screen for years. The deaths keep mounting. The issue isn't addressed.

My personal observation on the extreme of the law is that in florida the state legislature and the governor signed a law that made it illegal for pediatricians to warn folks about having guns in their homes. Specifically they warned families with little kids. What that does is glorify and protect guns over babies and little tots.

Take a look at this story from one of the little kids who died from a mistaken gun shot, self inflicted, 3 years old: http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=20353707&catId=112032

Not only are the extremes of the NRA and its friends holding back mechanisms to try and prevent these tragedies, but in Florida the state is fighting the court ruling that stated that stupid law was unconstitutional as it limited free speech by docs, (kid's docs).

There are many trying to deal with the issues on many levels. I'd like to see all sides engaged in the process to slow down the problems.

Rob: You keep referencing drinking. Spurred by the Mothers Against Drunk Driving, there have been various rulings, legislation, and enforcement that have cut down on deaths by drunken drivers over the years. Its been working. Its not perfect but then who is:

Some stats for about 20 years: http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html

the death toll has been roughly cut in half. Not THE PERFECT SOLUTION but a definite improvement.

We are going the other way on guns though.