Not getting legal information out of government - what to do?

I've been pestering the uk charity commission about telling me 'what is strictly required in a constitution for an unincorporated charity' ...and they keep shrugging me off, giving me their model constitution which 'includes what's required' but presumably also includes unnecessary stuff. i've asked the DTI (department of trade and industry) and NCVO (national council for voluntary organisations) and the FSA (financial services authority) and they've all said it's not their field, and referred me back to the charity commission. the charity commission just aren't providing me with information that i need and they're the only people who can (except maybe private sector lawyers who aren't so liable anyway because they don't represent government).

what do i do? i'm thinking of writing a letter to the prime minister. i've already sent him an email to which he hasn't replied yet

any ideas? who should i complain to or turn to for advice ?

maybe the citizens advice bureau? or is that not relevant to organisations?

 

Go to the press. Go public and make a headline on the media..that should make everyone pay attention...

 

that may be the last resort... but i don't wanna act like too much of a trouble maker just yet.

 

The best person to ask a legal question to is a lawyer who specializes in that area.

 

but the question is where to find one for informal advice that isn't looking for a sale out of me?

 

Lawyers are like webmasters - they are knowledgeable people who look to monetize everything they do. And, not unlike webmasters, they have built their profession on making themselves "authorities".

Seriously, you can't really get legal information out of anyone who isn't willing to share it with you. If you have a vested interest in finding solid information, you'll probably spend less money to pay for it, than you would lose by waiting for a free answer.

That's my exprience, anyway...

 

but im not losing anything because i have no income, hense i cant afford a lawyer. further, if i act on what the lawyer says then i will be liable for mistakes - but asking government bodies provides liability for when mistakes happen due to me following their guidance.

 

And as long as you don't make some sort of command decision, you will continue to have no income. Therefore, you ARE losing.

I think that you meant to say "prevents liability", rather that "provides", but OK. Nonetheless, are you sure that this is true? You mean to tell me that you can hold your government accountable for what you choose to do with the advice they give you?

 

If a lawyer gives you incorrect advice then they are on the hook for anything that comes out of it.

You can keep banging your head against the gov't wall if you want to, but they aren't in the business of giving out advice. They'll send you the forms and give you basic information but that's it, a good lawyer will tell you how to get the most out of the forms and make sure everything is taken care of.

 

i'm really not losing anything. i'f the profit were already mine, then i could lose it, but as i haven't made it yet, i have no claim to it and it's not like i'm wasting my time anyway - if i can't do one thing due to lack of legal advice then i'd do something else to invest in my business potential until avice becomes available.

prevents me being liable as government becomes liable - ie. provides liability elsewhere. and yes, if the authorities don't tell me how to follow the law then surely they can't hold it against me when i'm not able to follow the law because i simply don't know how to. coupled with the extensive provable research i've done to try to find out the relevant law (not discluding asking in such a business forum as this!), it's surely the government's fault for not providing me with the information i need to properly follow their orders.

yea, private lawyers are on a liability hook, but when the gov are prosecuting me it's the gov that i wanna put on the hook! and if i play along with what a private lawyer says, then the gov can always hold me liable for doing what anyone other than the gov tells me to do. partial liability still remains with lawyers, but when the gov are put on the spot, i can make them 100% liable, covering me completely (i hope)

and that's my excuse for not following their instructions properly - they simply didn't explain them clearly and simply when i asked them to! this is what i mean by providing liability.

i'm still keen to get advice from a good lawyer, or even anyone else, if it's free and not too much hassle. but i would be acting negligently if i didn't wait for clear confirmatory words from the horse's (gov's) mouth as to what orders to follow.

 

The gov't will still sue you, they'll still take you to court, you'll still be out a fortune in lawyer's fees and you'll probably still lose.

Do yourself a favour and talk to a lawyer if you're serious. Especially seeing as you're going to need hire an accountant and lawyer right away anyway if you plan on going the charity/non-profit route. The laws in that there are complex to say the least.

 

why do you think that?

do you really think the counrts will make judgements which everyone can see are clearly unethical? i think most bad decisions are clouded in confusion but when i make things clear i think i will get to the bottom of the truth... and if the gov try to imprison me still, i will try to escape, and i'll not feat being called a criminal for it. i may end up taking down the government one way or another if they seriously victimise me and mess with my life. but i think the higher powers would rather take the easy way out and do an ethical thing before it gets that far.

I've talked to my a-level law teacher and got what i expected - confused responses. i believe i could clarify the confusion or unethicality of any law lord or judge in the country. i believe law should be abolished, and if i must exploit it to show people how severely flawed it is then so be it.

I can't afford them, I have no income. So why would I need them? A lawyer might be worth chatting to but that's all. I wouldn't pay for one. As for an accountant - What's he gonna do? Add £0.00 to £0.00 and put it in a special document to satisfy the authorities?

Exactly - the laws are complicated to the point that people feel they need other people (lawyers 'in the know') to defend them. If I'm being 100% honest though, I cannot trust another person to defend me over an argument that I don't understand. I even think it is negligent to allow another person to do something on my behalf. I'm not a legal expert, but I can speak and understand English, so when lawyers and judges use complicated vocabulary (often latin) to justify their decisions or to ask me for statements I will simply ask them to speak English! Now why do I need a lawyer?

 

Good luck with that.

For a minute, I almost believed that you were someone who really needed some sound advice. Instead, all of us have unwittingly encouraged you to get on your soapbox.

With statements like the ones you've just made, I'd say there's a very good reason why you're not getting the help you desire. My guess is that they saw your posters hanging on the wall...

 

Thank you if you meant it.

a) I don't neeed advice, but do appreciate it.

b) By saying 'all of us' you're speaking for yourself and who else?

sorry if you're unhappy with my follow-ups to your comments. i genuinely hoped that you would genuinely be trying to help and make an honest follow-up yourself. instead, you seem to be turning to mockery and insult.

what exactly is that reason?

who saw what posters on what wall?

 

Try to contact some other unincorporated charities. My guess is most of them would charitably give you the information you're seeking.

 

well i do voluntary work for some and they really don't know what they're doing. most organisations just go with the flow when they don't understand but i want definite answers from the gov

 

Sometimes there aren't definite answers until after an expensive trial. Your best bet may be following generally accepted industry practices.

 

The normal, real businessperson approach is to find a good lawyer with expertise in this area, and pay them for their time. It may not be what you hoped for, but that's the way it works in this world. Laws of all types are unclear, and lawyers get paid to give advice, which comes with no guarantee.

If for whatever reason you want to do it your own way, I wouldn't suggest calling the dogs of the press down on the local governments. It's not a news story that the laws of the land are unclear, nor is it a hot breaking story that government bureaucrats don't want to take on the risk of being your private solicitor for free.

If it doesn't work to just use the draft constitution they are giving you, even with excess stuff you don't need but which may not be harmful, consider trying to get access to a law library. There may be a treatise there on unincorporated charities that discusses these issues.

Here's the catch. If you do the constitution wrong, you've got a problem, and it may be way too late when that becomes apparent to you. That it was hard to figure out and no one from the government would help you are not really factors that a court is going to care all that much about if the status of the charity is challenged. Either you get it right, or you don't. While your local solicitor with experience in this area won't be providing guarantees with his work, the odds still are much, much higher that he will get it right than you will.

 

good advice. thanks.

i simply can't afford to pay for anything as my wannabe org has no income. and i'm not afraid to go the atypical way due to seeing too many flaws in the typical way.

i agree - it's a messy thing to put two dogs against each other in order to get one of them off of my own back. i really don't want to do it and it would be an absolute last resort.

yep, i've recently been enquiring about my local law libraries and will be spending some time in them - but searching for the more fundamental underlying laws. i have no choice really but to go to a law library when it's not properly published online.

Exactly, and this is something which I am not prepared to overlook. That's why I'm so determined to get definite responses from the gov even when they're making it extremely difficult for me to get these answers.

i disagree with this statement. thanks for your advice still - much appreciated.

 

Just keep tilting at those windmills Birmingham, I'm sure you'll manage to take the gov't down over this.

Geesh, and here I was trying to give useful advice to this guy.