United States Heading towards a Depression?

As opposed to the rantings of the ever more extreme radical LEFT-wing, hmmm?

What a crock of shit. Are you smoking crack? Here in the 100% Democratically-controlled state government of Massachusetts we have crippling taxes that is causing businesses to leave the state in a flood. Meanwhile, Republican-controlled Texas and New Hampshire have no state taxes, low sales taxes and booming economies.

Interesting comment from a truth twisting propagandist for the increasingly radical left wing.

Truth is, illegals have an advantage that U.S. citizens do not - they are off the grid. That means they do not have the responsibilities that citizens have, while gaining tremendous advantages, all while taking jobs away from lower class.

Earl, do you remember when I wrote about the illegal that rear-ended my car on the freeway? HE hit ME, yet he got to sue me, but I could bring no charges against him, nor could I counter-sue, due to "complications of his citizenship status".

Do you know what the best-paying job for single mothers is? Waitress. And here in Boston, illegals have taken those jobs, leaving single mothers to go to social services for assistance, which places a heavier burden on the taxpayers.

Earl, you are living in la-la land. Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

 

Those words express one of the biggest problems with illegal immigration, in my opinion. Low income jobs used to be a starting place for high school kids to get their entrepreneurial roots and work ethic. No longer. It isn't just wait staff at restaurants. It is janitorial, construction, landscape, painting, auto detailing, you name it. 15 years ago, those jobs were predominantly occupied by kids still in, and fresh out of high school. Today, those jobs are dominated by illegals.

 

He'd win a gold medal at doing that.

Same here. Going up from 17% to 20% next month...with the country on it's arse!

Ain't that the truth!

 

How about you show us where in Keynesian economics says the government should increase VAT? The problem is that most people talking about these things don´t have any idea what they are actually talking about and are the same people who claim communism and Marx are bad because in Russia people were poor and didn´t have democracy. Keynesian economy theory talks about government getting involved in the economy but doesn´t write a prescription for how government should do. In fact most of government action run counter clockwise to the main idea in his theory and only serves the pockets of politicians but it is easier to come with one liner than actually discussing the subject.
I am not advocating that the Keynesian economy solves the problem and I see it more of a band aid to the problems of capitalism but as I mentioned in my post, I am sure most of people like mia who come with one liner, have no idea what it really is.

 

Not so sure on that, it was howled down as quick as it came up. Our economy hasn't felt the GFC anywhere near as much as the rest of the western world has, we have just had a carbon tax introduced so I think they'll let that play out for a couple of years before bringing it up again.

Take away the illegality, who would do a better job? I don't know of one kid under 21 with a decent work ethic, it's all about having fun these days. Even from an employers perspective, much more reliability from an older experienced employee I would think, especially one trying to keep their head down.

 

Christ, I heard about that and thought it was just a rumour. I feel for your agricultural industry, if it still exists. Let me know when they put carbon taxes on people for breathing.

The illegality is the entire point, so taking it away nullifies the issue completely. No is arguing non-natives don't work as hard. I think you'll find everyone here believes those who are best qualified for the job should be hired.

It's obvious that those from poorer and less developed countries are more willing to work on average because the more developed countries usually have an extensive welfare state and an entitlement culture based on the hard work of the previous generation. The reason we should be very sparing with immigration is because introducing more labour lets the lazy get away with it yet again and also punishes the minority who wish to work but find it more difficult because of the foreign workforce. Claiming the natives and young are lazy while allowing them to be is ridiculous and is the kind of moronic double speak used by the media, which is parroted by idiots.

For example here in Britain there was no national panic caused by mass job vacancies before they allowed anyone in Europe with a passport the ability to settle here permanently and claim all benefits offered to natives.

About the 21 year olds with no work ethic, you do live in Australia, right?

How about you show where I said Keynesian economics involves a VAT increase?

And there lies the problem. Keynesian economic theory is therefore an open book with no limits regarding government intervention. Economics and government should be as separate as possible. We realised how important it was to separate church and state, but we're still dragging our feet when it comes to economics. Politicians aren't economists so they shouldn't have quasi-dictatorial power over the economy, especially when it's not needed and no harm has come to the people. However, I do believe that the banks are to blame for the mortgage crisis so I think they should be punished by the establishment.

I like how you made a reference to capitalism when there's no nation on earth with a capitalist implementation. Most nations use a mixed economy and that's done really well so far...

You seriously think people are going to keep hoping that "next time" will be better? The reason people are suspicious of socialism and its permutations is because every nation that tried to utilise it has ended up oppressing its people under the means-to-an-end pretence or has collapsed.

Marx was an arrogant fool who must have had learning difficulties to honestly think the value of a service or product is not worth what someone's prepared to pay for it. His regurgitated "labour theory of value" is pure comedy, talk about complicating every strata of society. If you still believe Marxist economics hold any merit, I'm sorry to disappoint you but his predictions based on his "maths" have not come true and are considered to be fallacies. Look up the "Great Contradiction".

I never understood proponents of the artificial value of labour, do they expect people to pay more than they want to simply because it took hard work? Immaturity comes to mind.

You cannot avoid authoritarianism when implementing socialism because the entire theory is founded on the principle that a particular group knows better than everyone else, whether it be the amount an industry supplies, the wages of a waitress or the price of a loaf of bread. I've spoken to people who lived under socialism, from varying countries, and you should listen to them instead of being so arrogant and ignorant that you think you know what's what living comfortably in friggin' Canada!

A sensible person would impartially evaluate history. You don't need to go very far back. A recent example could be Nixon's wage controls. How did that work out?

 

When I had the biz, I hired the so called illegals. The American kids were just lazy and not dependable. They like to collect a paycheck without even sweating out. Calling in sick for many damn reason. There's a job to be done and who do you think will do that ? Many construction companies still hire people from the other side of the border. Especially during the hot summer months these kids would rather be hanging out in the mall or playing video games than burn themselves under the sun. In the winter they say its too cold to work outside.

 

I rest my case about people having an "opinion" without knowing what they are talking about. You talked with a couple of people from Eastern Europe and they were not happy so you decided that you know Marx didn´t know what he was talking about and it is bad.

 

Haha what an embarrassing cop-out gworld. You even quoted the sentences I made about Marxist economics and completely ignored it. Classic Talking with others is just one piece of evidence of many that I used to conclude Marx was an idiot. I've read quite a lot on Marx and his theories. I bet you got as far as that remote section I wrote about others in socialist states and then covered your eyes screaming naaaa naaa I can't see any further evidence socialist economics is flawed

By the way Eastern Europeans aren't the only people who lived under socialism I've spoken with.

 

I'm a believer in trying to acheive a carbon-neutral economy. Whilst there are a few things I don't like, such as giving billions away to some overseas corporation and having no say where it gets spent, I am happy to pay the real cost of clean supply in order to help ensure my grandkids will have a cleaner environment to live in. Leaving things as they were will head us into oblivion. Something needed to be done to curb an ever-increasing problem. Most countries will be going through the same process within ten years. We just started early to position ourselves firmly now whilst the countries going through boom times so it wouldn't hit us that hard.

The carbon tax is not a lot of money, they estimate it will cost the average person around $6 - 10 extra a week. The Liberals (republicans) were saying the world will fall apart but that hasn't happened yet so they're getting a lot of shtick on that atm.

I never mentioned lazy, or the natives, I said "I don't know of one kid under 21 with a decent work ethic".

I've hired a few kids here but never again. Cost me a lot more than I got back in the end. I haven't had a laziness problem, just can't leave them alone to get on with their job, they lose concentration pretty fast and have no compunction to think for themselves. McDonalds or checkout chick is the place for them imho.

I do appreciate Obamanation's comment "that's where they get their work ethic from" sure, but what employer would 'choose' to hire a kid knowing all the work it takes to keep them on track? Apart from a huge corporation that's paid backhanders to employ them.

Yes, sun, sea & surf, the place is full of ex-poms.

 

Now why doesn't that surprise me!

 

What does carbon have to do with a clean environment? We are carbon based organisms and carbon is one of the most abundant elements on the planet.

Natural emission of CO2 per year is 772 gigatonnes whereas human and industrial emission is 29 gigatonnes. Also, a couple billion years ago CO2 levels are hundreds of times higher than they are now.

I think the whole "carbon footprint" movement is a scam to squeeze us for more money without actually helping the environment at all, supported by the gullible who have no idea of the scale of human activity. I don't have a problem with reducing pollution, but CO2 is not a pollutant. Billions have already been wasted on windfarms that are proven to be completely unviable in terms of economics and energy. The Netherlands who were pioneering wind technology have suddenly cut most funding and done a complete U-turn away from it. Why is Thorium nuclear energy never discussed? It's by far the best source of energy available and we needn't worry about the dangers posed by uranium and plutonium based energy.

I didn't mean to imply you said that, I was just speaking generally of others who like to jump on the we-need-immigrant-labour bandwagon.

 

What evidence did you give??? There was nothing in your post with the exception that Eastern European countries were bad and I talked with a couple of people from socialist countries and they said it was bad. Please tell us what do you know about Marxism or Keynesian Economics. I am sure all your knowledge about these subjects will not be more than 2-3 sentence which most likely got nothing to do with the facts.

 

Scientists are pretty sure man-made carbon is causing extra-heating of the planet. Most of the time I live on a farm where I have a woodstove. Every few years I need to repaint because the white turns yellow so obviously on a small scale my wood fire is building up a layer of soot. I look around and see factory after factory with plumes of smoke billowing out and think that simply can't be good for the planet. We aren't closing factories, we're constantly building new ones. So what will it be like if we let it continue with the status quo in say 50 years?

If we set some money aside now we can throw it at technology now to acheive zero emmissions and imho that's a good thing. If we leave it to business/industry to do that themselves it will never get done. The theory has been around since the fifties but nothing has been done to curb it. Why not do it now?

 

Am I on the wrong thread is this the US Depression Thread or is there a UK or Europe Depression Thread somewhere ? *cough*

 

I fnd the following quotes irreconcilable with classic liberalism

Why are they irreconcilable? A few reasons. First they impugn the character of an entire group of people. Like saying black people are all criminals, or women are all stupid. I'm certain neither of you would tolerate the use of such generalizations against any minority, so why do you feel comfortable making such generalizations about younger people? Do you really believe there are no non-lazy high school age kids?

The other thing that makes your quotes anti-liberal is the premise that desperate poor and starving people make for good employees, especially if they are trying to "keep their head down" lest immigration kick them out of the country. Mind you, I doubt any employer would disagree with that statement, but it seems odd to hear two liberals sounding off with the employer mantra of "Give us more desperate people willing to do more for less". It might be the most non-liberal thing I've ever heard.

What you have inadvertently done is put your finger on exactly why this is such a difficult problem to deal with. Business people do like cheap foreign labor because they can work them harder, pay them less, and threaten them with deportation. Democrats like poor immigrants because poor people tend to vote with the Democrats. A nation filled with poor people is a Democratic wet dream from a political standpoint, because they would never get voted out of office.

In the mean time, unemployment among high school kids and fresh graduates is near 50%. Congratulations?

I've come to the conclusion that the word liberal no longer applies to people who describe themselves as left leaning. Truth be told, the word liberal, in the classic sense, better describes my politics than either of yours. Perhaps that is why lefties now go by the name "progressive". I suspect modern day leftists are closer to fascism than liberalism, and I don't mean that as an insult, but rather a statement of opinion.

I find this quote particularly humorous, as it was just a few posts ago you were concerned about the sales tax taking another 2.5% hike. This is exactly how new taxes are justified, and it doesn't matter whether it is the carbon tax, or the sales tax, or the "just because you are breathing" tax. The argument consistently goes something like, "Well it will only cost the average person (X), and (Y) is a really good and important cause". You hardly have to blink before you are looking at 17.5% national sales tax and wondering how it got so bad.

Saying carbon is a warming gas is like saying water is wet. What seems to be up for debate is to what extend man made carbon is contributing to the heating of the planet. Before we figure that out, it sounds like a great excuse to put some new taxes in place. They'll only cost the average person an extra $520 a year.

 

No they are not.

I had to research this a few years back and there is no direct evidence of man-made global warming. The Earth is an adaptive environment whose climate varies in cycles of hot and cold. There are planetary mechanisms that adapt if the atmosphere has too much or too little oxygen or CO2.

In any case, it is unrealistic to expect the climate to remain the same.

The entire "global warming" scam is about money. Money for alternative-energy boondoggles like solar and wind power. Money for the entire "carbon credits" scam.

It's funny that a person that can't explain how their television works is ready to accept global warming without any remote understanding of the science. The science is so complex that for the average person to insist that global warming is manmade, or that carbon is hurting the planet, is the technological equivalent of insisting you can remove your own appendix.

It's manipulation by victimization and it's very profitable. You show a few photos of polar bears and seals, manipulate people's emotions, say they are in danger by big corporations and play on liberal's prejudices. There is a shitload of money to be made by manipulating liberals' emotions. Just look at Michael Moore - in his book "Stupid White People" he talks about how gullible liberals are. Meanwhile, Moore the raging capitalist makes movies protesting capitalism. The guy is worth tens of millions of dollars treating liberals like fools.

Al Gore is another example. He has done absolutely nothing practical in his tirade against climate change, meanwhile he's made millions off it.

 

You defended Marxism as though you were well versed on the subject so I brought up the ridiculousness of his "labour theory of value", which you made no attempt to refute. What would you like to know about these schools of economics?

And I suppose this is the extent of your knowledge on the subject, right? A single sentence, no less.

 

Sales tax goes into general revenue, as if they don't have enough to spend already. BTW it was 5%. Carbon tax is dedicated towards solving a particular problem, and is being spent on that problem alone.

I don't intend getting into a debate on the reality of the problem. From the mountain of stuff I have read over the years and watching the increasingly wild weather I believe there is a problem and that's what matters to me. You can follow the 95% who agree with the theory or 5% who don't. I do know you, BRum, I or Corwin are not the right people to decide. I'd rather just pay the money and get on with MY job.

Whilst I sort of agree with your statement, someone has to pay for good ideas.

 

I will be very interested to see how you are going to refute the labour theory of value, please show us? If you can´t then just explain it with your own words because I don´t think you even know what it is.