After 10+ years in war. West's Understanding of Middle East = 0

After over half a century of dealing with Middle East (from overthrowing Iran's government in 1953 to now) and after being in three wars with Middle Eastern countries in the past 10 years, the understanding of western governments of Middle Eastern culture, politics, and religions is still at pretty close to zilch.

 

Agreed. You could turn that around and it would still be true. We think they're not too bright so why lower ourselves? It's like people in university dealing with kids in 2nd grade where our awareness is much greater. Incompatable on the brains scale and doesn't create even-sided debate. How many kids do you take to an adult show? Once they stop assuming that we should all live under the rules of a 1300+ year-old book and be happy then we might look at their maturation in other areas.

 

Case in point. You don't understand a thing about Middle east either, bundling everyone with religious crap and considering their religion an excuse to disrespect an entire race or two. Islam, Christianity and every other religion that believes in something called god is complete shit to begin with, but doesnt mean those who were born into and it somehow believe the nonsense (majority of people) are dumb or "kids" or backward minded.
Then you go considering yourself the "adults" and the Middle Eastern's the "kids". lol. Good to see DP has so many bright members.

 

What are governments? They are political entities comprised of people.The problem is that these "people" do not fully understand each others societies.
It is difficult for us in the west to comprehend the mindset of societies in the middle east.From birth people(in the middle east) learn to obey their fathers without question as they are patriarchal societies.Also religion is in every aspect of their lives,at home,in school,at work etc. Islam is serious buisness,obey,do not question.....
The governments are dictatorships for the mostpart,and it's do this,don't do that.
How then are we in the west ever supposed to relate when we are used to freedom and self expression? The different societies may as well be from two different planets.
All we can do is to try and get along.....good luck with that!

 

Its my personal opinion that the West should leave the middle east and its people alone.

 

And what would have happened to the innocent citizens of Libya had we "left them alone? And how long do we sit back and watch Syrians being slaughtered by the butcher Assad?

 

Libyans were capable of toppling Gadaffi themselves, he killed and would even kill more people, but that's what happens in conflicts.

As for Assad, he can be removed by his own people with the help of Syria's neighbours who are all armed to the teeth. The real reason why certain western countries are focused on removing Assad has nothing to do with helping out the Syrian people, they have something different in mind.

 

Would the Middle East war end? I don't think this is possible. With all the conflicts about the Western culture & the Eastern culture,war will never end in the Middle East.

 

Are you talking about innocent citizens of Lybia that starred in these movies www.obamaslibya.com ??

 

War and conflict brings out the worst in any people.Every society has people in it that will revert to nothing more than animals if they are stressed enough.But these film clips cannot be used to indict the whole Libyan community.Those clips are a mere snapshot of evil people doing evil things.Conversly to be fair,I'm sure you could also find clips of Libyans doing honourable and noble deeds too.

 

Nothing to do with religion really and everything to do with education. It seems the whole ME sees education as bad. Something that might open people's mind (turn them off dear old Mo). Stupidity comes with lack of education imho and it can be fixed. When OUR SIDE wins the war on stupidity, we'll make sure they're educated.

 

Well they appear to be trying to educate the people. The Top Universities.

http://www.middleeastdirectory.com/me_topuniversities.htm

Iranians are smart enough, they are developing nuclear technology on their own as well as advanced weaponry.

Wonder how many people would have died if Gadhaffi had stayed in charge. Would it have reached the 25000 who died to remove him. Wonder how many people would have died if Saddam had of stayed in power - would it have reached the 100,000s who died to remove him.

Syria is a civil war, both sides have weapons and people on both sides are dying.

 

Really, nothing MORE than animals? Have you ever seen a ( non-human ) animal doing any of that?

Are you trying to tell me Qaddafi was about to kill an entire Libyan community? Because I do remember you talking ab some Lybian citizens that needed to be saved

 

Bit unfortunate that the vast numbers of people who demonstrated on behalf of Gaddafi were ignored.

"On 1 July 2011, hundreds of thousands of Libyans supporters gathered in Green Square and surroundings. Some 1 700 000 people demonstrated to defend their country and to repudiate NATO’s aggression.”

The Brits never forget. After Gaddafi nationalised the oil industry and stopped BP sucking huge amounts of money out of the country decades ago, they seized an opportunity and in partnership with the US and France flooded the country with guns, blew apart a decrepit defense force and allowed the rebels to win. The lucky country now has sharia law, the same law that Saudi Arabia and the Taliban apply. They must be in tears of joy.

 

And good on them. One wonders what percentage of the ME has more than 6th grade education.

It sounds like a lot have died for no reason. What percentage of those killed do you think were enemies and what percentage were really civilian?

I'm often speaking out against the 'collateral damage' too (there is too much for sure) but then I think about it more and realise that usually the people in an area being bombed are served notice by our side that the bombs are on the way. Take that Battle for Fallujah for instance in that 3 hour documentary where the west dropped fliers and told everyone who wanted to leave to get out first.

Who stays behind when they're warned the enemy is on the way? I would think soldiers (and stupid people).

 

In Iran, education to 8th grade is compulsory. Then the same as happens in every country that has good educational facilities - the brightest go on and the others fall by the wayside and do their best to survive their limited time on Earth.

As far as I am concerned all citizens of a country killed by an invading force are innocent civilians. It's irrelevant whether they are soldiers or housewives. Until they were invaded they were just living their lives at the mercy of things beyond their control. You know, just going about their daily work trying to earn enough money to put food on the table.

Unfortunately for some they chose the defence force route and all of a sudden they are required to put their lives on the line to defend their country against invaders. And who wins? Weapons manufacturers for sure. What happens to the profits of weapons manufacturers if there are no wars?

Big biz rules and it sucks.

 

I think it goes well beyond big business and/or a burgeoning military, although I will concede they are bringing about the inevitable faster than it may have happened naturally. The thing is, for the global government to occur, where we can get some grasp on population controls as well as a world-wide plan going forward we must all learn to get along.

Our side will never agree to go backwards to meet the demands of the lesser-enlightened so, whilst Christianity or Islam control things a war is indeed continually inevitable imho. Personally I would never agree with the demands of either religion but Christianity (as it is today) is at least bearable (& survivable). I've picked my side in that war 100%.

So what do we have to work with? A not too bright population looking for a leader to lead them. Most of them seem capable of goat-herding, process working, firing a weapon or other so-called mindless jobs but you would seriously struggle to find enough people smart enough to fill the many positions required to run a country who aren't already seriously tainted by corruption (or religion).

Until recently we didn't care about that. We just paid them billions for their oil. Since then we worked out their dear leaders are using the money we give them to invest in golden palaces for themselves or attacking western infrastructures rather than use the money to better themselves. Fuck that!

From what I can tell, apart from newer bullet-ridden buildings and TV, the people themselves still haven't moved on from the 19th century, aided purposefully by their leaders. I believe that is because noone has a clue how to fix it, yet anyone can fire a gun so fighting is an 'easy' choice. When a 6th grader is forced to work and given the choice of mathematical theory or joining the army what are they going to choose?

I'm positive the ME population would much prefer their kids were properly educated and healthy in their thriving warless economies rather than daily dodging of the flying bullets on the way to work or school but seeing they don't have much say in the matter and most have no idea how to run things democratically, it looks like we do have to help them out.

We can not just go and takeover the extremely corrupt regimes as most ME citizens are indoctrinated that the west is evil. The minute we tried that we are again inviting an attack. Any moves they make towards democracy must be at least seen to be their idea.

For that to occur first they will need some properly educated non-corruptable people who understand we are not their enemies and who can run things once their current leaders are taken out, and I seriously hope that is already being done.

On the one hand, I think we could replace the need for ME oil by us using alternative fuels, then we can leave them do what they want on their own dime. Only oil companies would object to that change and we do know they will have some sway in the matter. By doing that though we still have the scourge of extreme Islamist dictators shaping ME decisions and, like bailouts, we're putting off the inevitable war to a later date where it will hit them even harder when it finally arrives. More people per square inch makes for much-higher possible death-rate.

As it is, I believe Islam is in competition with Christianity/Agnostic/Atheism and always will be, especially if people are continually forced into it and/or killed for rejecting it. Not until extremists properly understand that God is they themselves will they stop trying to fix the world for God's sake (who they don't understand anyway). They will continually strive to force us to live the way their God told them to 1300+ years ago, and, in so doing, will continually hold their followers back.

On the other hand, taking out the leaders or the people actually responsible for keeping their populations in the middle ages (church leaders especially) will solve the problem forever, as well as provide the money to help the ME thrive when oil/resource money is spent more wisely.

If the big war was put off for say 20 years and we win after the oil money is all gone then they can't use that money to rebuild. Surely it is more humane to get it over with now whilst there is a possibility of rebuilding some kind of life. The bigger it gets, the bigger the problem.

It's not too hard to run your country well when you have a seemingly endless amount of money coming in. Australia is thriving right now because we're selling off our resources, then invest the profits into education and new infrastructure (though not a lot is spent on the latter). ME has the same opportunities but instead invests in war toys and religous study instead of the purely scientific study that most western schools now provide.

USA doesn't have the luxury of endless resources to sell (but they do hold many patents to make up). Imho it is ridiculous they spend so much of what they do bring in on a military, especially whilst decrying the cost burden of education. If they were to stop educating their people, or make it harder for the population to become educated, then they too will prove stupid, if not dangerous, within just a few years. Education of the masses rather than a select few significantly reduces stupidity levels.

 

And how about the casualties of a civil war? How about the casualties of a country that invades another, but then loses strength and ends up with a retaliatory counter invasion to remove the people from power who perpetrated the original invasion?

The world is not black and white.

 

WHAT? lol. Perhaps you didn't know average person in Iran has higher education that average Americans. again. case in point

 

A few points here.

1) Bushranger isn't American.

2) Iran's literacy rate is 91%. Any guess what the literacy rate is in America (Or Australia where Bushranger is from)?

3) Here are the top 20 countries in the world by tertiary attainment level. See if you can find Iran.

4) If you call someone "dumb" while accusing them of getting a fact wrong, when it is actually you who have the facts wrong, what does that make you?