Does it make sense to take interest in PHP, ASP.Net, and Rails if no DB is needed?

If no database is needed - digital point forums needs to let you have more space in the title.


when I was at a tech college, I learned the basics of PhP and Asp.net, so I know "what they're like" but personally I won't need to work with databases anytime soon and I find database stuff pretty boring anyways.


Is there a lot of non-db stuff you can do with such languages? I know that there's plenty to be done with JavaScript that has nothing to do with databases but JS is hardly a programming language (but it has become more relevant in recent years of course, its not some "kids" language or "special ed" language either).

 

People seem to think you need a database because, uh, because, er, doesn't everyone use a database?! Which is the question of one who doesn't know what they're talking about. I'd venture to say 99% of the people on this forum don't need a database for anything they are doing. My company has three ecommerce applications and none of them use a database.

If you think that, then you are beyond help, and not worth the effort.

 

I don't follow you... You went to a "tech college" and learned the basics of two programming languages yet you are absolutely clueless of what they are capable of doing? A database is not part of any language. In fact, to access a database you (usually) will need to make use of Libraries/Packages/Modules... As for "database stuff" being boring...a database is simply utility to store data. It's not boring. It's not exciting. It's just a convenient tool that will become your best friend when you actually decide to learn programming...for real this time.

Using a database has nothing to do with Programming. So of course there's tons of "stuff" you can do...

JavaScript is a scripting language that is read via the clients browser. It can't even access a database. While it's obviously a language it's not a programming language at all.

It's still irrelevant to programming standards.

 

I agree.. But only because 99% of the people on this forum aren't doing anything much..

Your company has no use for Storing data in a secure, organized and relational format?
Even if you use TEXT files to store your data (HUGE HUGE mistake) you are still making use of a flat file database even though it's barely a system...

I find it hard that you have an e-commerce website that doesn't use a database. Let's see the website.

 

Exactly my point.

Our format is secure and organized XML.

We have no need for a database to look orders up. We have our own API for accessing this data faster (and smaller) than any database. We don't need a DB coder, it's in C so more secure than SQL. So with the API we essentially wrote our own SQL but smaller, faster, more secure.

Nope. Will never reference anything I've worked. We find no need for any database for anything we've ever done. I'm not saying databases have no place. I'm saying in most applications that don't involve large inventories that needs flexible cross referencing/reporting, which is almost everything anyone on DP would ever be involved with, a database is just not necessary.

 

And the XML is stored as a file on the harddisk correct?
So if you wanted to perform a SEARCH function you would have to parse the entire XML file and store it in memory then write a function to either check an array or perform some sort of old school linear search, correct?
I don't see how it would be faster, more secure or even more convenient than using a database.

mySQL is so simple to use and connecting to the DB isn't even resource expensive anymore... I don't see why you would boycott an industry standard approach to save/search data.

 

Look at the size of any database and the files it saves compared to our 3K program and and far smaller data files and then tell me any database would be faster. Especially while we use C to access that data compared to SQL. Also tell me about SQL injections and how you could do that with our C program. And don't tell me databases don't read in data files and do table setup before they access anything and their interpreted language can do it faster.

And don't tell me setting up a database to handle all those relations is faster than typing <order><item><price></price></item></order> that even a user can read and understand.

Where did I say we boycott it? I'm saying our approach for our ecommerce sites is faster and easier than any database available today. I'm also saying people use a database nowadays because someone once told them you're supposed to without giving any valid reason to do so.

 

The size on disk has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency and speed.

The language used is irrelevant. The actual database handles the indexing, processing, and CRUD procedures. From a logical and programming standard perspective it makes no sense to try to reinvent the wheel by creating your own XML Databasing system if you have an actual database available on your system.

Do you even know what SQL injection is? It's when a poor programmer uses bad programming practices by injecting user defined variables directly in to the SQL code. This allows ANYONE to maliciously insert additional SQL code... The fix is simple and effortless when using the appropriate libraries for interacting with a database. It has nothing to do with the database but the programmer instead...

I don't think you fully understand how databases work. What is your background?

I will assume since you are saying it's faster you have the benchmarks to prove it.

Easier? Writing your own code to do linear style searching on text files located on your disk is not easier or faster. In fact, it's very poor programming practice.

Then again...if you only have a few products I'm sure it doesn't matter. But you mentioned it's an e-commerce site? Aren't you processing credit cards??? Where are you storing transaction numbers and your customers info???

 

Don't get me started on you.

Don't get me started on you.

It is thinking like this that has caused us to have GB operating systems and programs created by people who think the solution to any problem is more memory and a faster processor. You are also presuming we have to write this system with every new program but, just like reusing a database program, we reuse our XML DB (if you wish to call it that)..

Did you understand what I said? I'm saying we've removed the possibility of SQL injection while a database programmer will always have that possibility.

Oh don't get me started with this either. Suffice to say, I've been in this field since 1978.

Again, you think we write all new code with every new program. No we don't and don't have to. Would you say the same of mySQL and PostgreSQL for poor practices by creating those?

Not a few but nothing on a huge scale that databases would be good at.

You aren't allowed to store any customer information related to customer credit cards on the server.

sigh. I haven't had this argument with anyone in quite a while and I'm already tired of it.

 

Once again... the size of the database on disk has NOTHING to do with efficiency and speed. It depends on the architecture of the data and the method it is accessed to search, retrieve and store. By searching through an XML file (flat text file) you force your search algorithm to do a linear style search through the entire file. A database makes use of INDEXES to search quickly for data. It's quite simple to understand... Take 1 MILLION lines of XML code and perform a search on the data. The entire XML file is either briefly stored into memory OR read line by line (top to bottom). A database that may consist of 1 million rows will NOT be accessed row by row...but if it was it would be a hell of a lot faster than line by line of text. This is seriously common knowledge. You apparently aren't familiar with databases or even conventional programming methods.

That's not true. Perhaps that is the TERMS OF SERVICE of certain Share Hosting accounts but NOT a law. MANY companies store Billing information securely encrypted in a database. How else would you be able to handle subscription billing????? Maybe you use 3rd party companies like PayPal or even 2CO and you aren't your own Merchant.

You're just wrong... I'm not going to tell you how to program but there's a reason why DATABASES have been invented. XML simply is not a logical alternative if you have growing data. It makes absolutely no sense why you would create your own functions similar to SQL to manipulate your XML when you can just use a database.

A good programmer knows how to use the right tool for the right job.

 

I will inform our credit services and banks they are wrong. Thank you.

Like I said. **sigh** just **sigh**

 

The only way to do subscription billing is to store the billing information.

Credit Services and Banks do not set Laws.

Perhaps you just don't have a background in ecommerce...

All you are doing now is dodging the facts I point out to avoid admitting I am correct.

 

No. I just don't feel like getting into this same argument I've had with others in the past. It bores me. Next thing you'll try and tell me is you can't do serious javascript work without jQuery. **sigh**

 

You are ridiculous. Good luck with your ventures.

 

Ridiculous is saying what we've been doing very successfully for years is wrong.

 

Ridiculous is saying that storing data on a hard drive isn't using a database unless the storage method is one of the recognized databases. Storing data in a text or XML file is storing it in a database.

 

You're right. Lets all sell our cars and buy donkeys... Who cares if it's less efficient and slower because it's what we've been doing for years..............

 

Took you two months to think of something to say? You are just like everyone else. You use a database because someone once told you you're supposed to. Reasoning doesn't matter. You're just supposed to. You do as your told and never ask why. You're a good lemming.

 

It doesn't matter whether you're using a database or not, it matters whether the page is supposed to be doing anything. A static page can be 100% HTML/CSS. A page that only interacts with the user from the UI can add Javascript. But a page that has to interact on the server, whether it's using a database or not, has to use a server-side language. You can't interact with the server using only client-side languages.

 

I don't come here often. I use a database to store data because that is what a database is intended to be used for.

There is no way you program for a living. You have absolutely no idea about the inefficiency of using flat text files to store data.