life long imprisionment, work camp, something like that. to me killing a murderer is ending their punishment while the family of the murdered victim continue to feel the sorrow of a lost loved one
Then your point is we shall not give a death judgement to the murderer? Right? Cause If we kill those murderer, then we'll be a murderer too.. am i right ?
Whether it is "allowed" by any holy scripture is irrelevant to me, I am not a slave to obey those books. However from a moralistic viewpoint, I am completely against the death penalty. My most important question is, why must we kill a person who poses no immediate danger? He's handcuffed & locked in a high security prison. Why must we reduce ourselves to the barbaric & subhuman practice of seeking vengeance for a deed already done? Interesting ongoing discussion about the death penalty.
What's the difference between me killing an attacker vs the state killing my attacker? I'm not sure there's anything different but circumstance. Same result. Most people wouldn't complain if I killed someone whom invaded my house and tried to kill me.
The TS was asking what exists in the respective scriptures, and we can argue the moral quandary another time. But let's take your question directly. The situations you pose are not the same. In my home, or on the street and in the moment: to protect a life, I end another, then and there. A prisoner under state purview has been subdued. There is no need to kill the prisoner to effect a self-defense. My attacker cannot do me harm, when forever put away. To kill him, in effect, is the same as killing a POW. No trappings of jurisprudence, no high rituals of state, can cloak the naked fact: we are murdering a person. I may hate that person, and wish him dead. But if his lethal ability has been made moot, his death is murder.
I'm not really against or for the concept of state executions. Murder is generally thought of as planning or preconceiving the idea of killing. Bibically, I've heard that God's reason for wanting humans to not MURDER each other is based on the fact that he made us in his image. Often in the bible people are killed because they murder another....so there's fuzziness in the perspective there. Personally, I wouldn't care as much if it happened to individuals whom commit murder. I don't support it, but I'm not against it.
We should be clear. I believe you asked a straightforward question: I posed one answer. The thread starter asked for evidence in Christianity and/or Islam for capital punishment. This has also been discussed. I would personally kill any who attempted to kill me or mine, if that is what it took to prevent my murder, or that of my family. On the other hand, I believe the grotesque ritual of state execution places us outside the realm of civilization, and this is therefore not an inconsequential question.
Religiously it's hard to answer. In the world without religious answers or religion, I'd say the morals of the world are subjective...ie it's in man's mind or an invention of man. Therefore what is done is neither right or wrong without a standard, and indeed the standard is subjective and chosen. The only difference is the consequences in all essense. To apply a moral to that would be subjective as well. I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't kill,...I'm saying that we chose are morality based on a flawed paradigm of thought, rather than a clear perspective of what truely is. If we don't believe in a higher power, then we must accept that our morals are relative only to their consequences...which isn't an exact science.
I'm confused, Rick. Are we discussing religious or moral thought, or, as you asked, the difference between killing in self-defense and state execution? And to address your last post, I would have to say, even in the presence of religion, there is no objective standard. The talmudic scholars, the ulama, the pontifical treatises, the Bible colleges - all point to a dearth of absolute thought of right and wrong, even in the presence of a "known standard." Absent "religous standard," even more so.
Sorry if I confused you. I'm state in religion it's hard to access what would be the position, but given there isn't a god, morality is subjective. Two different perspectives. Well, if there is a god, and he has a moral law...I would think that doesn't go within the term subjectivity. Subjective means create by man or man's mind, but objective just means by nature. So while it's not necessarily objective if it's 'god's law', it not subjective ie to say if there is a god with a moral, it's not created by men.
Definitely agree. This is the reason why I cant declare Im an atheist or decide to follow a religion. It all depends without a God and a religion. Yet, religion is the main reason of troubles nowadays and has always been. God, if you exist, please provide us something concrete. Its just not great living this way. Let us know your way and live normally, without a Christian fighting a Muslim or a Muslim fighting a Jew. God, if you exist, why wouldnt you want us to live peacefully with each other? If its because we are your slaves, why do you tell us having slaves is bad and at the same time drive your creatures to blow up each other? Is it fun playing with out lives?
That's the point and I hope that the countries which still pracise capital punishment will change soon.
I can't wait those peaceful dream begin... no more murder, no more conflict, only peace in mind and heart.
I don't see religion necessarily being the problem. I see unreasonably violent/coercive mysticism being the problem. Many of us harbor mind-creations. We believe in a love, but sometimes it's really in our head or we believe in a idea but it's not true...something to that measure. It doesn't really hurt anyone to have mysticism, but yourself at times. Just believing in god doesn't hurt anyone. Even if there wasn't a god, it would just amount to a bit of wasted time....not that bad. It's when it becomes a violent/coercive belief that danger could arise. Some are more subtle than others, and appear less violent...but nonetheless I believe they're equally immoral. Simple way of putting it... Some liberals believe it's proper to transfer citizens wealth around...I believe that's immoral due how it forces ones own mind-created reality on another (and I believe it's unreasonable). Another would be how some conservatives think Arabs/muslims are inherently evil and need to be attacked first...that's where I draw my line with SOME conservatives. I look at all people as individuals till they prove otherwise. Some Liberal and Conservatives are dangerous, but in a different way. Ah, you're like me. You wish there was a god whom could talk to you, and tell you the ways of the world. To make reason, out of what you think is unreasonable. You're looking for the good. The proof of that is inside you. You are already are the way. If there was a god, I believe he already favors you. Truth doesn't need scripture, it exist on it's own. Man usually perverts what's given to him lazily,...it takes a good soul the effort of his own will to know good. To know truth and good, all one has to do is be honest about it. Atleast that's what I think. Even as a Doubting Thomas, I believe if there was/is a god, I would still be looked at favorable...since my journey goes upon those dictates. Maybe he does, but he wants us to come to that conclusion on our own. Maybe he doesn't exist. I think the conclusions are hard to come to. The first one sounds so much sweeter. I see your feelings of pain, which are incredibly justifed....makes you feel like Job. Makes you want to cry to the heavens and say 'Why god!? Why do we have to suffer so!?' I can't say that I've gone through what you've gone through; but I reccomend very lightly, that you let that pressure expel. You look up or around neither in anger or spite. The mysteries of this universe are hard to understand, muchless it's hard to grasp the reality of a supreme being. To understand the very reasoning of such would be far more complex than can be simply said here. If god gave us the right to chose, he also gave us the right to suffer. Devils and angels reside in chose. Just chose wisely, and hate not what you don't know. An even harder thing to do is to not hate at all. Sounds like an incredible feat, especially for your circumstance, but atleast I believe it's best think to do for anyone peace of mind. Avoid the temptations of what you believe is evil, even if it's simply desiring someone death. Things will happen naturally, with or without god. You sound like a good guy, and I hope you well.
You are comparing apples and oranges. What God forbids is the "shedding of innocent blood" or what we call "murder". When a person commits murder they are no longer "innocent" and when they are put to death, they are facing justice and punishment for their "sin". The persons/govt executing that judgment are not murderers. The Old Testament theocracy sanctioned the death penalty for many grave sins and the ones executing were never called murderers. The New Testament states: Here you see clearly that the governmental authority is an institution of common grace established by God to restrain and punish evil (necessary due to the fallen nature of man). This institutional structure also "does not bear the sword in vain" and will "execute wrath on him who practices evil". The Bible has no problem with the death penalty in man-to-man relations. It is one of the tools that God uses to restrain evil.