Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS)

Hah!

Actually I was taken to an Italian restaurant in town that had a liquor license. The wine list was very limited and extraordinarily over-priced, (I believe about four to one).

But the atmosphere of this place Otavio's, I think, was really quite good. And the service also quite good. And the owners, get this, were actually italian!!! From Italy!!!

Back at the Marriot, the following morning, it looked like everyone was on ludes or something. At the breakfast buffet I swear I waited in line for a table for a half hour while there were at least ten dirty vacated tables in eyes view.

When we finally did get a table I went up to the omelette station which was empty and ordered what I wanted from the lack luster chef: "I'll have some mushrooms, fresh tomato, spinach, scallions, and ham..."

"That will be a half hour."

"For what?"

"Your omelette."

The cold pancakes were delicious.

 

Personally I think South Park did a better job portraying us than Stepford, but that's just my personal opinion. But OK, if you were in downtown Provo, then your perceptions are quite accurate, it IS Stepford! And while Ottavio's pretty good fare, Try Tucano's next time you are in town--you won't regret it. For all our flaws, we do have a pretty good sense of humor about ourselves--most of the time.

 

Then perhaps you did read my post and saw what you wanted to?

That's right, I said "your God" because to me there is no proof a deity exists either way and I am not a christian. Hence it is "your God" not mine. Just like Allah, and Buddah is their God not yours.

As for me positively declaring that no God told them anything I wholeheartedly back that statement based on the fact that I know you can't prove he did. See it's funny but if the same people who wrote the bible were alive today claiming to be speaking to God they'd be locked up in a crazy house.

You seem to want me to be saying "there is no God". That is not the case. I just said that God didn't speak to you because if he did that would be proof there is a God. Which is not the case.

The only sub-meaning behind what I said was that people walk around all over the world following different religions thinkign they know what God wants when in reality not a single one of them actually has spoken to God or knows what he wants.

Some religions even believe mankind is not physically capable of hearing God's voice. Are they right or wrong? How do you know?...

 

Hah! True enough.

Will try Tucano's next time (you did, apparently, note I had nothing to say about Otavio's food)

 

LOL--I did note that--I've eaten there and I agree there's not much to be said. Unfortunately, if you want awesome Italian cuisine in my neck of the woods, you have to have my wife fix it for you. There are few who can outcook her (sorry we don't serve wine with the meal ). What the heck were you in Provo for? It's not exactly a major business hub or resort town.

 

George, my very point - how do any of us know?

You can dance all you want, but the truth remains. You said:

.

Has not. Did not happen. An utter impossibility. A statement of fact.

How the hell do you, I, or anyone know? For all you or I know, "his God" spoke to him, exactly as he said. You denying the remotest possibility - "This Did Not Happen" - is a statement of certitude, and as the absolute non-existence of God hasn't been proven to you, or me, anymore than the existence of God, this affirmation of fact completely abrogates the creed you hold to on your website.

As much as I resent religious folk telling me my atheism is an impossibility, your religiosity in proclaiming someone else's view for them is nothing less of missionary. And, based on your own words:

-you would do well to drop the mission and do what you say you are about - live your life, and allow others to do the same.

Truth be told, so would I. I am just as prone to believing in the superiority of my viewpoint, and this is asinine. I believe all religions are fantasy, the cause of much misery on our fragile planet, and we have only conspired as a species to create God in our own image. But this is my creed. I have nothing to say about others'.

 

Sure... and the tooth fairy really gave me a dollar!

 

Under the penumbra, "Religion," there is no difference between preaching the Gospel of Christ or the gospel of Atheism. It's all postulating tenets based on the ultimately unknowable.

If you cannot see the difference between me saying, on the one hand, I find all religion as credible as the tooth fairy, and, on the other hand, telling someone else their belief in the existence of God is patently ridiculous, then I am afraid there isn't much common ground between us, Yo-Yo. I find such a viewpoint as ossified as stone, as rigid as the most religious of zealots, and as useless.

Always search.

 

I concur. There are some topics which are outside the scope of science, because we have no method of applying any form of the scientific method to them.

We athiests have been no less arrogant (speaking generally) than our religious counterparts. Hell, in the Soviet Union and China, it was the athiests who persecuted and murdered religious believers for their lack of faith in Athiesm.

We athiests should, more than any other group, know and understand the limits of our belief system. But, as you pointed out, not all of us do.

 

Great story, Deadcorn, literally - do you write? I enjoy your writing here, and, as a reader, would like to see more. But then, it would be tough for you to supplant the shelf space I've devoted to Bourdain.

 

Umm... sure. The belief in "god" is way more logical than the belief in the tooth fairy.. or santy clause... or big foot. Somehow....

Maybe next you can tell everyone in the loony hospital they might not "really" be crazy since we can't prove there isn't "really" someone's voices in their head.

 

You are wholly missing the point. The absolute belief in God, and the absolute disbelief in God, are equally illogical - with no judgement on illogic; rather, an admission that both involve, at some point, a simple declaration of faith.

I derive my worldviews from empirical testing, and have concluded based on this, that there is no divinity. For me to proclaim this as a Found Truth to others is evangelical in the extreme.

Your comparison to a psych ward is specious. There has been a science, and a scientific method, to discern the paths of schizophrenia and psychosis that manifest in your "talking voices." To my knowledge, no such science exists to deal with "prayer."

Yo-Yo, I hate debating atheism as much as I hate debating religion. If you want to talk about what religion has done to the world, an empirical fact, then you and I would have much common ground. If you want to simply thump the atheist bible, I'd suggest another debatee.

 

Such studies do exist, however many of those studies though they show positive results are inconclusive due to the difficulty of retaining true "scientific methods" (i.e., each individual must speak the same prayer in order to be considered a true control in the experiment). Here's a link to several studies:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=scientific studies prayer&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&oi=scholart

Regardless on which side the proof lies, people will still likely draw their own conclusions based on their current belief system. That's just human nature.

 

Thanks, Avi8r, I should have been clearer. I know of the many studies discussing the effects, and testing the presumed efficacy, of prayer (and meditation, for that matter), on health, illnesses, stress, etc., but none that I know of that actually watch "prayer" in the human brain, as it were. I will look over your sources, and thanks again.

 

You're right. I have never heard of such a study being conducted. It would be fascinating to see the results of such a study conducted on those on whose behalf the prayers are offered as well as those offering the prayers.

I did see a couple of physics studies whose intent it was to demonstrate the power of our mind to act on matter/energy by tracking patterns of atoms fired through slits in a piece of barrier material and another experiement showing patterns crystals are frozen in as they monks meditate on the water droplets being frozen. Both very interesting studies. Not exactly prayer, but much along the same lines.

 

Excellent post, North... I have always struggled to put exactly what you have written here in words.

Thanks

 

Is that what it's up to now?