United States Heading towards a Depression?

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by decoyjames, Dec 27, 2007.

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  1. Emily Johnson

    Emily Johnson Peon

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    #6681
    Maybe if we stopped spending billions of dollars on this ridiculous war we wouldn't have to worry about all this. Just my opinion.
     
    Emily Johnson, Jul 1, 2011 IP
  2. Breeze Wood

    Breeze Wood Peon

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    #6682


    WI did not shut down because the Republicans simply voted their own agenda at the expense of women, children and working Americans.

    An example above of similar legislation for American enterprise and job creation for working Americans being jeopardized again by the same restrictive and self serving agenda of Republicans echoing unfound allegations putting in perril the economic recovery for transitory gains in their hopes for positive returns in the next election.
     
    Breeze Wood, Jul 1, 2011 IP
  3. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #6683
    Dayton's rhetoric is about 20 years out of date.

    I think I remember reading that the revenue from the tax increases he wanted to institute was far lower than the increases in spending he wanted.
     
    Corwin, Jul 1, 2011 IP
  4. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #6684

    Its a great time to be a Wisconsinite! The Federal Government could learn a lot from us.
     
    Mia, Jul 5, 2011 IP
  5. Breeze Wood

    Breeze Wood Peon

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    #6685

    A plagiarist mis-quote is a serious breach of integrity for any Public Forum and I would hope to include Digital Point as one with the same standards as one would expect from such an Established media.

    Mia, you can not ascribe an Original post and change the words without acknowledgment - the others change the wording but not under the pretext that I wrote them.

    Grow up Mia, others have different ideas than you have - learn to listen as well as to talk.
     
    Breeze Wood, Jul 5, 2011 IP
  6. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #6686
    [​IMG]
     
    Mia, Jul 5, 2011 IP
  7. Breeze Wood

    Breeze Wood Peon

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    #6687
    Funny, Mia.

    Digital Point does not have a minimal standard against plagiarism????
     
    Breeze Wood, Jul 5, 2011 IP
  8. Mia

    Mia R.I.P. STEVE JOBS

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    #6688
    [​IMG]
     
    Mia, Jul 5, 2011 IP
  9. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #6689
    People are mad... look at the overall attitude of these comments on what is happening with their lives : LINK



    Greece already lost. Iceland won. Its amazing to me that people fail to look higher than the level of politicians ( repub / dem ) for answers. It is not on that level. Being forced into debt is no different than being forced into slavery... which is exactly what is happening.
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jul 7, 2011 IP
  10. eric8476

    eric8476 Active Member

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    #6690
    alright, i am not strong on this topic but i think i have ideas to be looked into:

    topics to be looked into:

    1. their is a form of investing where you can invested against the current debt. if it is debt against a country or group. possible. can someone elaborate on this topic please because this investing technique could be in question. has this form of investing driven us to where we are at. i would not be surprised if there were investment tactics where people would "put their heads down" and go with strategies. have we "hedge" debt in the forms of debt? there is an investment strategy about this so don't say i am inaccurate about this.

    2. obama was into the "derivative market" from his campaign. his initial treasure secturtary was with this. what are your opinions on the derivative market? from what i understood obama was big on this from his election. where are we at now?

    please elaborate
     
    eric8476, Jul 7, 2011 IP
  11. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

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    #6691
    Derivatives were used to ruin our economies.

    Interesting article: the-case-for-derivatives.

    Great comment from The Great Depression: Similarities "Then and Now"

    ... and to think in 1913 Americans were sold on the notion that a central privately owned banking system - the "federal" reserve - would stop depressions. From 1929 to the present day the threat of depression has remained consistent. To Wilson! For trading the freedom of The People without consent for non-existent security. Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    BRUm, Jul 8, 2011 IP
  12. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #6692
    The depression worsens :

    LINK
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jul 8, 2011 IP
  13. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #6693
    I find the current US economic situation deeply depressing highlighted by a fantasy version of reality promoted by the Extremist Right Wing and currently being effected across states where Republicans won legislative majorities or governorships wherein they are effecting changes that are ripping apart fundamental mainstream American demand. The vast majority of Americans that populate the middle and lower income levels are being economically ripped by Right Wing politics.

    In Minnesota right now, a few fantasy driven right wing politicians are blocking the ability to get the state government back to work. Ultimately they would rather see 5 million+ citizens of Minnesota all suffer rather than see less than 7800 uber wealthy citizens, each of whom earn over $1 million/year share in the state effort to get a budget to work. Their is no sense of solving the problem or sharing in responsibility. ZERO. None. Fantasy exremist political views rule over the lives of the entire state population.

    Now here is what it would take to make a deal. The less than 7800 residents of this state that each earn over $1 million (I assume taxable income) would be required to pay about an additional 2-2.25% on their state taxes. Here is what it would mean to one of those folks.

    They have pre tax earnings (taxable earnings of over $1 million. They have a fed tax (lets assume absolutely no deductions whatsoever--creating max fed tax--(I would bet not one of them has 0 deductions or credits whatsoever---NOT ONE). So they pay the feds $350,000 in taxes. Meanwhile their current state tax is 8%. Okay....they send $80,000 to the Minnesota state treasury.

    That leaves these folks with $570,000 disposable income after taxes. Ohhhhh. How sad how tough. Its tough to live on $570,000 of after tax income. Choices are tough. Should I own 3 fancy cars or 4 of them. Should I join one fancy country club or two of them. tough life!!!!! Don't ask me to contribute to the rest of the state. I'm doing my duty.

    The proposed 2-2.25% tax increase would mean that in order to facilitate a deal to put lots of Minnesotans back to work, to provide the social assistance in day care that allows less affluent workers to afford day care so they can work, etc. etc.....it would mean that the 7800 uber wealthy people AT MINIMUM would have about only $550,000 of disposable income.

    Oh that is MISERABLE!!!! What am I going to do? Should I sell my 4th car or maybe I should stop my membership at the 2nd country club.

    What a joke. I can't make a reasonable dent in employment with an extra $20,000 in my pocket. What am I going to do? Hire one person at a roughly minimum wage $20,000/year job? That is an absurd argument.

    Look I've been at levels with tremendous income. I'm a business person. I invest in businesses. I operate some. I also do other things. With excessive funds I blow some money. I go on holidays with some. I lent some of it to people I knew who needed assistance and in some cases I got paid back and in others I didn't. Some of my investments worked to create more wealth for me and others. Other investments didn't work. Obviously not everything works in the world of business. I've also been at levels of extreme poverty. When I don't have money I don't spend. I don't add to consumer demand. I don't buy stuff. If I'm not buying consumer goods such as electronics or whatever: the businesses that produce that stuff don't invest in staff or plant or machinery. Demand is down.

    The crazy thing about our economy right now, is that the meager slow recovery is as slow as it is more as a result of our economy being characteristic of hyper capitalism rather than anything akin to socialism. Those socialism claims and the claims of the right wing are as far from factual as black is to white.

    Large corporate America isn't hiring Americans. They went through a period of 6 quarters with greater/even record levels of greater profits/more cash flow/more cash on hand than at any time in history and these businesses aren't hiring. The argument from the extremist right wing has always been....drop corporate taxes and it will increase hiring.

    H.A.S.N.'.T H.A.P.P.E.N.E.D. It simply hasn't occurred. Its a false argument. The world doesn't work that way. Business and economics don't work that way. Its not taught in basic economics.

    What does work is demand and supply. That drives economies. It is why there is an economic definition of the word market. The only place it has validity is fantasy non-real Right Wing polemics. It has as many holes as does fantasy marxism. People can poke enormous holes in both political theories practiced in the extreme. Right now we are living in a nation that can't get its mojo back on an economic basis because our economy is suffering from hyper capitalism....wherein the chiefs of the biggest companies can do any frigging thing they want anywhere and government has Zero ability to protect the rest of the population.

    There is an example of this phenomena being written about in Digital Point and it includes a wide variety of actual news citations : http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=2223640 In this example Ikea, ironically being headquartered in Sweden with a significantly Socialist environment, has opened a factory in the US and is using every corporate advantage to kick the sh!t out of workers in an environment that describes something akin to modern corporate slavery. The company is paying employees something near minimum wage, spent a lot of time hiring through temp agencies to get still lower priced employees, obviously is creating a work environment that is brutal as turnover is terribly high despite being in an area with very high unemployment rates, is bullying and threatening existing employees, and is obviously making a sweet profit off the factory as they are running 3 shifts/day 24 hours/day/weekdays and running weekends overtime. Yet they are kicking the crap out of the employees and the employees can't get any protections in any way. That is a prime example of hyper capitalism in the real world!!!!

    On the other hand you have a US based International; GE that paid ZERO in federal taxes last year despite making about $15 billion in corporate profits. $15 Billion. Lets see the corporate tax rate above a level that is very low for GE is 35%. 35% of $15 billion is $5.25 billion. BUT.....the US taxpayers facing an enormous debt didn't get ONE RED CENT from GE. So to deal with this debt issue the RIGHT EXTREME PARTY wants to cut every benefit/transfer/ etc. to little people so GE can go on its merry way.....and by the way....not do a frigging thing to hire some Americans from the unemployed or underemployed.

    There are no guarantees that GE is taking that level of profit and investing it back in the US. NO EVIDENCE. What it does appear to be doing is investing it in overseas operations so people in other nations can benefit. Ohhhh....excuse me. GE did put money into some Washington lobbyists pockets to try and convince members of Congress to continue to pay for an enormous project building a jet engine we aren't planning on using for future jets. Meanwhile sick people are being told they'll have to go out of pocket more to pay for more medical needs.

    Is this a nation of people or is this a nation of peons that bow down to corporate interests and takes it up the @ss because of some BS package of right wing politics.

    Right now the current Right Wing "explanation"/blame game for why big businesses aren't hiring and need MORE tax breaks is to use the blame language of corporate "uncertainty" on taxes. That is why there is meager investment in US hiring and capital and equipment according to the Right Wing Business apologists.

    Folks, if you've ever met a payroll....let me assure you there is absolutely no such thing as business certainty. NONE. You won't read about it in a basic book about economics and business. You wouldn't have found it in Japan on the early morning of March 11, 2011 when the earthquake and tsunami devastated a portion of Japan and had ripple effects around the world in ways nobody would have predicted the day before. By March 17, a US GM truck factory shut down, (laying off workers--> btw decreasing consumer demand) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704360404576206933329363162.html because of this event.

    Businesses live off of uncertainty and adaptability. The concept of certainty in the real world of business simply doesn't exist.

    Yet "certainty" is the term Right Wing extremists are using to explain why businesses aren't hiring or investing and why they need tax cuts. In the real world....the term doesn't exist. Its pure fantasy.

    Finally....the right wing political entity has for the 2nd time in months put a GUN to the US government on trying to deal with the continuing problems of a weak economy, continuing large scale unemployment and underemployment and says it will blackmail the US nation and threaten thorough economic ruin unless the lowest overall tax rates in 50, 60, 70 years are endlessly continued and every other aspect of the US economy is shrunk, withered and reduced.....basically all so the uber wealthy can continue to decide if they should keep 4,5, or 6 cars and join 2,3, or 4 country clubs.

    Its the second time in months. Yet the political US is scarcely waking up to this crisis in reality. Its remarkably unbelievable in the depth of the deception. Yet its not so unbelievable. Just less than 3 years ago in the midst of the world wide recession wherein the entire world economy was at the doorstep of collapse the majority of the RightWing Republican party voted againts the first version of collapse on Sept. 29, 2008. Immediately the broadest indicator of the US stock market plunged 800 points....the spread between commercial loans and guaranteed govt rates was at a 30 year high and the effective rate of the majority of all variable rate loans made everywhere-->based on LIBOR--was about to increase every loan everywhere by 3% points....thereby totally destroying all vestiges of economic life anywhere......

    Fortunately several days later on October 3, 2008 after this tumultuous economic response to the worst example of RightWing hyper capitalistic thought and action---enough Republicans changed their votes to get TARP passed.

    The economy was saved....a recession did not become a depression. Instead of 50 or 60 million Americans being unemployed or underemployed we have about 24 million in that status.

    enough out of me. I'm busy. (3 phone calls. business to get finished)
     
    earlpearl, Jul 8, 2011 IP
  14. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

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    #6694
    Kaboom! :D
     
    BRUm, Jul 8, 2011 IP
  15. Breeze Wood

    Breeze Wood Peon

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    #6695

    An Irony to the previous election as Profiles in Courage often are the casualties than the victors in times of need.

    The tide will return for moderation and inclusion than self-interest and denial.
     
    Breeze Wood, Jul 8, 2011 IP
  16. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #6696
    Iceland won because the government there is putting the corrupt bankers that caused their financial crisis in jail. Meanwhile, here in the USA, the corrupt bankers that caused our crisis are getting fat bonuses, same as the BP executives that caused the Great Gulf Oil Spill. Obama fiddles while America burns...
     
    Corwin, Jul 8, 2011 IP
  17. Breeze Wood

    Breeze Wood Peon

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    #6697

    Well, does the State of the Nation have no meaning for Republicans???? -

    Not when it comes out of their own pocketbook.

    At least we have an Administration that now appears to have a "backbone" as well as a sound plan of action.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
    Breeze Wood, Jul 10, 2011 IP
  18. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #6698
    Here's what's crazy - Canada's economic problems are based on the same factors that affect America. But last month (June 2011), Canada created 28,000 jobs and they've got 30 million people. Meanwhile, the USA created only 18,000 jobs with 300 million people. When Obama took office, the official unemployment rate was about 7%. The official unemployment rate is now 9.2%.

    On Meet the Press this morning, it was mentioned that during Clinton and Bush, the debt was $500 Billion per year. But under Obama it is now $1.5 Trillion per year.

    Look at how lousy this "recovery" has been compared to others:
    [​IMG]

    This is beginning to raise the question: Since U.S. manufacturing jobs are not coming back, is this economy now permanent??? :(
     
    Corwin, Jul 10, 2011 IP
  19. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

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    #6699
    Unless The People draw a line in the sand and begin a ball rolling no government would want on their hands, "austerity" and debt slavery will continue to worsen.
     
    BRUm, Jul 10, 2011 IP
  20. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #6700
    Corwin: That is a complicated graph. I'm a very analytical and financial guy...but that thing is complicated. Took a while to decipher it.

    We know that you and I are on total different ends as to what is going on and who is at fault ;). Regardless, couple of comments about that graph.

    1. Why did this guy create a 1980 and a 1981 recession as to jobs. The recession of that period was rolled into one generally thought of as 1980 to 1982. Maybe there was some kind of employment loss/employment gain and employment loss again. If so the guy should roll the two together because it was a difficult long time. Since it was one long recession and if in fact there was a large employment loss an employment recovery and a secondary loss it would be far more relevant to show its impact and then describe it. I experienced the tough times. I was working at the time.

    2. The 2nd thing of note is that the 3 recessions that experienced the slowest levels of job recovery have been the 3 most recent ones: 1990, 2001, 2007. Regardless of where one is politically, and how extremist one wants to shout..with regard to the blame game.....the thing that strikes me is that it appears structurally the US economy now and for the last 20 years is not working in a way in which job growth can rebound quickly as opposed to previous periods. I wonder if its because of an ever decreasing amount of manufacturing jobs as a percentage of the overall workforce.

    3. Last thing. I experienced the heart of the 1990 recession first hand. It came right out of commercial real estate world for the most part. One thing about that recession (depression within the commercial RE world) There were definitely jobs lost in that industry, commercial RE, that didn't come back for 6,7,8 years--possibly longer in some parts of the country.
     
    earlpearl, Jul 10, 2011 IP
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