Obama Adminstration Selling Guns to Mexican Drug Lords? REALLY???

Weapons can be traced to where? The US.. What purpose did that serve?

 

You cant trace the gun if you scratch the inside of barrel. They usually trace the gun after finding what the bullet grove did. You would shoot something and then scratch the barrel making it impossible to trace back to the gun. You would have to wear glove to make sure no prints got on the bullets or gun before cleaning it and loading it. Scratch the serial number off all the way and file it.

 

I posted the link to the National Tracing Center, after Corwin shouted, "Rebecca, it still remains, THERE WAS NO WAY TO TRACE THE WEAPONS!!!" Because, technically there is a way to trace the weapons. It's just that, it's only after recovering, for example, at a scene of a crime. Reportedly, under Operation Fast and Furious they were surveilling known straw buyers. When they were aware of a buyer making a purchase at a gun shop, the ATF would enter in details in the database, like makes and serial numbers. That's how they were able to trace the assault rifles involved in the murder of the border patrol agent (serial numbers). Under regular circumstances, outside of this program, I'm not certain how they trace weapons. They do to an extent, as the factcheck article from '09 mentions Mexico has us trace guns each year found at crime scenes in Mexico. For those, I'm not sure what the procedure is - it may be that they are just trying to see if they originated in US for statistical purposes. But, again, not really sure.

 

"Bill McMahon, ATF Deputy Assistant Director, testified that of 100,000 weapons recovered by Mexican authorities, only 18,000 were made, sold or imported from the U.S. And of those 18,000, just 7,900 came from sales by licensed gun dealers." Sorry, I was incorrect, it's not 6%, it's 7.9% were a product of, as Rebecca claims, lax U.S. gun laws. Source

We already know that Operation Fast and Furious sent 3,500 MORE guns (mostly AK-47's) to Mexican drug lords.

 

Corwin is a joke....this episode will have to be further investigated to reach any final conclusions.

 

The 8% is misleading. First, your quote insinuates that 100,000 were sent for tracing to the National Tracing Center. That's not the case, is it? It was a portion, appx. 20,000. Out of those traced, 18,000 were proven to have come from the US. Of course, that statistic disregards the possibility of any crime involved gun in Mexico originating from the US, unless it was sent to us by Mexico for tracing. But, if we just ignore that, 18,000 of 100,000 is 18%. So, in order to get the 8%, the statistics need further manipulation to say, "We're only counting guns that were purchased directly from a licensed gun dealer in the US!" In other words, they're not counting person-to-person sales without a licensed gun dealer being involved. That statistic (8%) is not an accurate reflection of guns going into Mexico from the US. I would say 8% or 90% are both statistical manipulation to serve the agendas of either side.

Btw- Thanks for admitting you just made the 6% up.

 

No, I didn't make the 6% up - I remembered it wrong because a fast glance at the page, 6 and 8 look similar.

Look, you blamed the guns on lax gun laws. "Lax gun laws" would be responsible for legal sales of guns, right? According to the sample, legal sale of guns in the U.S. were responsible for 8% of guns found in Mexican crime scenes, originating either from direct U.S. sales or U.S. straw buyers - which is what this clusterfuck was all about in the first place!

And you are wrong with your statement "18,000 were proven to have come from the U.S.". That is completely wrong.

18,000 were proven to be MANUFACTURED in the U.S. Is this a small point? No, because these guns did not come from U.S. gun shops - which means they where part of legal exports to other countries, either for private citizens or for military use. Legal exports have nothing to do with U.S. gun laws, which deal with sales to U.S. citizens. These guns were exported to other countries, then found their way into the Mexico. So, blame other countries' "lax gun laws".

Rebecca, this all comes down to technicalities. Your language is childishly inexact and you exaggerate.

 

If you're trying to suggest that all guns are illegal unless they are bought directly from a licensed gun dealer, well, I don't believe that's correct. The laws may vary from state to state, but, I don't need to buy a gun from a licensed gun dealer. We don't even have registration or licensing, for a non-NFA weapon.

I wanted to expand on my remark about lax gun laws. First of all, I would never be supportive of any attempts to restrict, or infringe upon our Second Amendment rights. I'm not interested in disregarding our constitutional rights to control criminals in Mexico. The government in Mexico needs to handle that. I think the responsibility ultimately lays with the individual that pulls the trigger. However, I do think our laws inadvertently help to make it easier for weapons to fall into the hands of drug cartels in Mexico. With that said, I've heard Mexico is kind of restrictive with guns. I don't recall where I read it now, but remember reading that some of them have to wait two years to get a gun?! So, common sense would say, they are going to follow the path of least resistance. If they can easily get a gun from across the border, that's what they're going to do. What if US citizens had a long waiting time to obtain a weapon, restrictions on how many they can buy, it's common sense to figure out the impact it would have on straw buyers. Again, I'm not saying that's what I would support, just trying to explain where I'm coming from.

"18,000 were proven to be MANUFACTURED in the U.S. Is this a small point?" I think the quote you're twisting that from is:

"...18,000 were made, sold or imported from the U.S..." does not translate to all 18,000 were "legal exports to other countries."


With the rest of your paragraph....

Your second sentence doesn't make much sense either:

According to your source (and you), part of the 18,000 did come from gun shops (7900).

There are U.S. laws that deal with exporting guns, but I know what you mean (kind of).

Above appears to be a closing statement to wrap up your illogical conclusions.

 

Was wondering when someone was gonna bring that one up. Very few here remember or are even old enough to know about that.

Agreed. I'd be hard pressed to give him that much credit.

 

including an explicit ban on firearms trafficking and tougher penalties for straw purchases of guns.


What is Issa's objection to the above legislation that would have prevented the outcome of an agents death - perhaps the sponsors of the existing legislation that allowed the occurrence and is the scandal for the republicans involvement in the incident.

Not being able to arrest the Straw Man purchasers proven to supply the Cartels is reprehensible and a barrier to the ATF in fully implementing their program.

 

@Breeze

"The Maryland Democrat released a report early Thursday titled “Outgunned,” that details how ATF agents say gun laws need to be tightened for them to fight organized crime along the U.S.-Mexico border."

Breeze, I think that I've found the actual report - "Outgunned: Law Enforcement Agents Warn Congress They Lack Adequate Tools to Counter Illegal Firearms Trafficking". It's a 26 page PDF.

What is being proposed:

1. Stronger Penalties for Illegal Straw Purchases
2. Enactment of Illegal Firearms Trafficking Statute
3. Requiring Reports of Multiple Long Gun Purchases

 

No, actually, I was in a hurry and decided to base what I wrote, directly on what YOU wrote. Silly me, I never should have trusted you.

 

Uh, no. You're so dishonest. This reply is not for your benefit, as you do not have a shred of integrity. But, for anyone reading this thread, they can easily read our posts. Let's take a look at your complete response in the post where you claim all 18,000 were manufactured in the US AND all 18,000 were legal exports to other countries:

Let's recap...After you made up the 6% statistic, I asked for a source. Of course, you couldn't find one. So, you found the closest, where someone tries to twist the statistics into 8% (which is not really accurate, as explained earlier in this thread). Anyway, so this is from YOUR source: "...18,000 were made, sold or imported from the U.S..." So, that would indicate "18,000 were made, sold or imported from the U.S.", right? It would for me. In this regard, the only claim I've made is that according to the statistics YOU presented, that 18,000 came from the US. But, you've taken that info to claim proof that "all 18,000 were proven to be MANUFACTURED in the U.S." AND further claiming it means "all 18,000 were legal exports to other countries."

To say you were basing your false claims on something I said, is just more dishonesty from you. The part of your quote bolded shows that you disagreed that 18,000 came from the US. You gave it thought, before you then went on in the same post to claim they were all manufactured in the US, and that all 18,000 were actually legal exports to other countries. In that same quote you're basing your claims on the "fact" that none of these guns came from gun shops, which is contrary to the quote that YOU posted (not me) as a source - here. Further, you're making the false claim that guns that don't come directly from gun shops, would all have to be legal exports.

But, if you are now wanting to retract your entire post, I completely understand. It really didn't make that much sense.

What about your claim that "The Obama Administration has sold thousands of fully automatic weapons to Mexican drug lords." Are you also ready to admit this entire thread was started under a false pretense? I can understand you're driven by your dislike for Obama, but really, threads like this don't help that cause at all.

 

Really Corwin, Law enforcement and the Drug Wars have indeed run Amuck - try and keep the focus on those responsible rather than your wild imagination and false allegations.

 

Interesing Breeze, do you agree the "war on drugs" has been a gigantic waste of time, money and lives? Would you prefer to see the the "war" ended?

 

Yes, and the laws passed after the repeal of Prohibition could be used in modeling an adequate response for people who are unable to control their cravings, in general.

The threads focus on a one term Senator and president for 2.5 years for a condition existing as far back as the beginning of the last Century is disingenuous to say the least.

Law enforcement is not the solution and time has proven the point.

 

If you've got the money there's not much you can't do, after all it's a wall street government and if you've got billions of dollars and a lot of power then wall street is going to want to know you regardless if your business activities are legal or not. A lot of business activities on wall street aren't legal, but LOL when did that stop anyone.

Money talks, everything else is just noise.

 

I don't believe Obama actually served one full term as anything, much less senator.

 

Interesting, I like your ideas. Obama promised on the campaign trail to push the legalisation (still not decriminialisation, though) of Mary Jane. I haven't seen him do anything of the sort. He should have endorsed the relevant bills in California.

 

Agree on California and scores of similar opertunites....time to leave the Middle East as well.

Other than Health Care (A+) and little Libya what has Obama stood for ????