Honestly while traveling abroad the anti-american sentiment has grown greater over time. I've been outside of america for almost 3 years now. And most everybody thinks bush is an idiot. Some people will that I'm in China, people hate americans there.. they definatly dont. They dont like busy very much though! I even had taxi drivers telling me not to vote for Bush during the election. I basically agree, though I always tell where I'm from when asked. Chinese people always ask about American politics, especially when I was teaching english here.
Like I've said before, I have no sympathy for Saddam. He was an asshole and deserved whatever bad would come to him. But the negative consequence of us deciding to go in without the will of the world behind us, and without a realistic view of the complexities of the country and the possible outcomes, was just fucking stupid. I said we DID have goodwill built up, dumbass; before the invasion, that is. The world was especially behind us after 9/11, but the great genius, your lord and master, do-no-wrong-george, decided to squander that goodwill. Yeah, I remember. Flowers; a mission accomplished declaration; then three years of our kids getting killed and Iraq degrading into civil war, with us in the middle. But hey, who am I to question, Bush said "mission accomplished" so it must be so. I understand how hard it was for him to pass up a photo op like that, campaigning to get reelected and all. Bullshit, I love my country. I love it enough to realize when it's been damaged my narrow minded, arrogant zealots, all in the name of patriotism. Looks like it's blowing left to me. Scared? [/quote] Recognizing that we are a part of the world and that the world's view of us DOES matter, is not selling out the country. Our relationship with the world is vital to our self interest. Recognizing and saying that we were misled into a war by over ambitious, and possibly naive leaders is not selling out the country. Recognizing that we have become a perceived threat to the world and that this makes people nervous and has most probably recruited people to actually fight against us is not selling out the country. Failing to even consider these things in order to maintain strict adherence to the majority party IS selling out the country. Attempting to squelch any opinion that does not correspond with the majority party's belief's with accusations of treachery, may not be treasonous in legal terms, but certainly is in spirit. And it IS selling out the country. If there cannot be a voice of dissent in times of turmoil then there is nothing left to fight for.
Again, you simply bypass what took place. Oil-for-food scandal, oil vouchers, the UN and our allies were bought out. Though we did have many allies. Arm chair quarterbacking is a liberal specialty. Lest we forget. And I said that good will was sold out. This must be the part where you honestly think you are asking questions. The part where liberals expose their true feelings, despite portraying themselves as mere victims for "simply asking questions." Nice job So you admit you were not being honest initially, until someone pointed out the reality. What question did you have? Hiding behind the veil of asking questions when all you are doing is attacking is exactly what I pointed out, and exactly what you are doing. BTW, the mission was accomplished for that particular ship. You'd be surprised at how some would try to portray it in a different manner though. But, for some, facts don't matter. Who said you didn't love your country? If in fact questioning was what was taking place. In fact, it's mostly just accusations and hatred. This is not questioning. Questions answered are just that, answered. Continuing to raise them (when in fact it's not really self-loathing attacks on our country) makes them no more valid. Contrary, the spirit of our Founding Fathers was not self-loathing and defeatism at all costs. I'm always concerned when the left's only agenda is defeatism and their talking points read like a message from bin laden. So maybe next time we should get in on the oil-for-food program and pick up some oil vouchers too. Can't beat em, join em, right? Whatever is most popular and fashionable, whether it's right or wrong. Who would it be selling out? Who misled whom? Or are you saying that facts don't matter? Seeing your scathing attack on Bush, above, sure looks like a four year shelf life to me. Inaction is the best course of action. Probably, might be, could be, could have. Yep, typical. Self loathing on behalf of one's country. What else do you blame America first for? I'm sure you can find some other things, no? Can't say there's much squelching going on, but sure seems like a lot of squealing. Nice strawman arguments. Looks like you're dissenting quite well to me! Blaming America first is a fine art, eh? "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill
This is so very true and my sentiment as well. I travel abroad a lot (every 2 months or so) and I have been for the past 12 years, and I have never ever felt so ashamed of being American and I am always on the defense and trying to justify to people that Bush does not represent ALL Americans and certainly not me. I hope a better man will come to power and undue and restore all the damage this idiot has caused for all of us. We went from a proud country to being an ashamed and hated one and a very divided one indeed.
Even if they were bought out, you're saying it was still smart to go in and overthrow Iraq? You are saying it was smart to into a situation where we would be bearing the overwhelming majority of the burden, in a "country" that is comprised of three major groups that absolutely hate each other, in a country that posed no immediate threat to us and had not been shown to have ties to the 9/11 attacks, to enforce our idea of what freedom is on them, without support from the world _population_? You want to fight an ideological war when most of the world isn't in tune with our ideology? You want to fight a war of hearts and minds when most of the world's hearts and minds hold resentment over our decision to act without consensus? Are you able to count higher than 2? Do you even realize that not everyone is a conservative or a liberal? It doesn't matter to you whether or not I'm _really_ a liberal does it? As long as you can use the dirty word to try to discredit my arguments without actually dealing with them. Oh boy, you got me there. You're pretty slick. Maybe one day they'll let YOU be The Decider! Hahahaha! You're kidding, right? The mission was accomplished for that particular ship? That's the message they were trying to send to the American public with the speech the President gave, with that big banner behind him, on national TV(many stations), after he landed on the freakin' boat flying a plane himself, that he learned to fly while he was dodging Viet Nam? Jesus H. Christ!(Sorry, I meant George W. Bush) Let me just quote your words again for irony: You question nearly everyone's patriotism on this forum who doesn't agree with you, especially if it's on the war. Oh by the way, I think the majority of the country, by your measure, has sold the country out. http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm Ah shit, I forgot. Those polls were conducted by the liberal media. I know how they're always out to get your kind. Presenting you with facts you don't want to accept and stuff. When in doubt, whine and play the victim. You sure you're not really a liberal? You have to watch out for those wiley liberals. Like William F. Buckley for instance, or George Will(an oldy. How about just not getting bogged down in one of the worst foreign policy fiascoes in American history next time, due to hubris. Is that asking too freakin' much? Dick Cheney said plainly and assertively that Iraq had direct ties to al Qaeda, being it's "geographic base", as he put it. I mean, he said it, before he said he didn't say it. FLIP FLOP! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRQM4tjOVc0 Umm, how bout maybe just a little bit of critical thought and humility? Ah, falling back on your pejorative, yet vacuous phrases. They are starting to sound very algorithmic. "Self loathing", "blame America first", "Yes Dick, my master, I will bring you the brains of 13 virgin liberals as you requested". Are you sure you're not a bot programmed by the minions of Dr. Evil(aka Dick Cheney) in an underground bunker off the coast of...whatever island Halliburton uses as a tax shelter? I'll address this later in grand form. You'll be proud of me. I promise. I believe people like you are more of a threat to our freedom than those people in Iraq. It is people like you and your ilk, that would more likely cause us to become a state beholden to one central view, where any conflicting viewpoint is seen as a threat to the state. Sounds a little bit like fascism, doesn't it?
The time I spent outside America during the Clinton Admin, people thought he was an idiot too... Actually, they laughed when they mentioned his name, he was more of a bufoon and a joke, than an idiot to many. Like I said... Nothing has changed. The same people who disliked America still do. That's nothing new. There's some sound advice from an expert. I've never had a problem proclaiming where I am from, EVER. People generally don't have to ask. When traveling abroad, kindness, graciousness, and integrity are easy to spot. Man, I remember traveling in France in 82', the sentiment towards Americans was much worse than it is today, if not exactly the same. Again, nothing has changed.
I'm dealing everyday with Americans working in Asia and those who feel ashamed of saying to be American have nothing to do with Bush or against him, it rather was the behaviour of Americans living abroad and this has changed for better under the Bush administration.
Let's compare G.W.Bush with Clinton ! Think of the similarities. Both guys are extremely political and seem to make policy based on politics. (Their respective politics vary by night and day.) Bush Sr likes both of them. They both have tempers. Bush Jr. once challenged his father to a fight. Both went to Yale at some point. Both avoided the war in Vietnam. both were governors before becoming President. both won reelections. They are about the same age.
I got married exactly 18 days after September 11. I had already booked tickets out of the country months prior. My wife and I had to stay overnight at a hotel in Chicago near Ohare' because just two weeks prior America went on wacko alert. So we waited 4 hours on line to fly out of the US. Let me tell you, the sentiment and the attitude of people in the country we were in was FUCK AMERICA. They hated us before Sept 11, after, and still do. GWB did not create that hatred. Like I've always said, it's pretty much always been that way. Really. It really depends on where you go. Never had a problem in Italy, pre or post 9/11. France? Yep... GB? No, not really... Only when I socialized with the Irish did I have a problem in GB. Scotland? Damn, I never have known, and probably never will know a more happier group of people! I got nothing but love there! Now if I decided to vacation in Venezuela? I think I might have a problem.. But then again, there pretty much always was one. Things people should be ashamed about in America include: 1. All the damn fat people 2. All the damn SUV driving polluters 3. All the damn media outlets hell bent on creating doom and gloom Things people should NOT be ashamed about in America include: 1. Protecting our liberty 2. Protecting our freedom 3. Protecting our country from attack
The person who started this thread obviously assumed this forum is a bunch of peons and easily swayed by non-important comparison until everyone starts throwing facts at him; then he disappears. Iraq is a total disaster. When it does become a democracy, the American military would have already destroyed all of its infrastructure and created a desert wasteland. If any one remembers how nine-eleven feels like, Iraqis are going through the same nightmare every single day for the past three years. 600k civilian deaths in Iraq is three hundred times nine-eleven. When you realize that more American troops have died in Iraq than the number of civilians in nine-eleven, you know something is REALLY really wrong. I seriously hope everyone in this forum will go out and vote this coming November election based on what you know, and not what the news media feeds you.
It is not total garbage, as it does not address the original post directly. However, it does describe what Bush is doing compared to Clinton's presidency.
You're right. But we should not be afraid to have differing views on how exactly to achieve those goals. To suggest someone is an America hater simply because they disagree on tactics(and perhaps even strategy, or even ideology in the broad scope) is a political tactic devoid of any ethics whatsoever and does not serve us well, as a nation.
Don't you just love polls.... Hell there is one on DP right now that has Nintendo pegged as the hottest guy on DP. Polls are pretty accurate, don't ya think? I'm not suggesting anything. Several people here have voluntarily admitted they are ashamed to be Americans. I did not make them that way, nor did I accuse them off it. They decided for whatever reason to tell me about it.
I believe the record shows overwhelmingly who thought that. It seems "your ilk" and "your kind" were more than ready to do such. But when things get tough, "you" and "your ilk" want to "cut and run." Let's look at the record again: If you are ashamed of your positions, change them. Don't cry to me about the filth you post. You either stand behind your positions, or you don't. Make up your mind! Indeed I did. Apparently it's true, facts just simply do not matter to you: http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/mission.accomplished/ The question was, "who said you didn't love your country?" If you don't want to be questioned on your comments, keep them to yourself. Otherwise, stand behind them and stop pretending to be a victim for the trash you speak of your country. Are you suggesting that people in this particular poll have uttered the same comments you have? Or are you trying to mask your comments under the guise of simply asking questions? Polls also predicted kerry would win the last election. In other words, inaction is the best course of action, always, because you are too personally worried about what others might think of you? Carly Simon wrote a song for you. I bet you have a magic crystal ball to look into as well. While not part of the current topic and just another red herring, Iraq did have ties to al qaida, they are well documented. I believe you are experiencing humility. Apparently you have no problem with it for your country, but when it comes to you personally, you have an issue with it. Typical of most liberals. It's all about "them." You are letting your emotions and true colors shine more, with every post. For some, patriotism has a four year shelf life and no matter how hard they try, they just can't mask it. I'm rarely proud or impressed with those who self-loathe on behalf of their country, who are more than willing to make up their own facts to blame America first with, but can't take personal criticism regarding their comments. I do hope it's better than what you offered up so far. Interesting. So you have no problem blaming America first, exposing your blind hatred, making up your own facts, masking your hatred behind a veil of "but, but, but I'm must asking questions, you question everyone's patriotism that doesn't agree with you," and to make your point, anyone that doesn't agree with you, is a threat to the country you blame first, for everything, and call them fascists. So that's how portraying yourself as a victim works! That was real intelligent
Talking tough is the only thing a thug like Sadaam understands when you are trying to pursue a diplomatic solution. Would the people you quoted, have gone as far to cherry pick intelligence and lie publicy(senior administration officials have been caught in several) in order to gather support for the war? Would the people you quoted have actually involved us in a war that would likely end in us becoming mired in civil war? Would the people you quoted have actually taken us into Iraq, spreading our military thin and making us less able to respond to more serious threats? Would the people you quoted actually been willing to commit to the idea that we can spread our version of freedom to a people that have known nothing but brutal tyranny? Well, that's what the decider did. You quote those people as if I'm some big fan of them and that, that somehow disproves my point. You are good at conflating the views of those deemed as "liberals" with the views of those who oppose you in order to discredit their arguments. If OJ ever needs another lawyer, he should seriously consider using your services. You are a lawyer, right? If the glove doesn't fit? Here's something from a flaming liberal who didn't think we should go in before the war, Gen. Brent Scowcroft, the former National Security Advisor of Bush Sr.: The gall of those panzy, defeatist liberals never ceases to amaze me. I bet you could show that ole' general a thing or two about kickin' liberal-terrorist ass. Why did he give that latter article the title "Wrong War Wrong Place"? He might as well have called it "We're Here, We're Queer, Come Over Here(and attack us again)". Pinko, liberal, commie homo. You have really learned the art of conflation well from your dark masters. Just say edD, liberal, edD, liberal 5 million times fast the way the administration said Osama, Saddam, Osama, Saddam, every chance they got leading up to the war, and people will start to believe you. You can get air time on FOX News, right? No you didn't. I was being sarcastic in suggesting that you were slick. I shouldn't have relied on you actually being able to grasp that, being all aganist logical reasoning and science and stuff. So the navy suggested it and the white house actually made it. So who decided to have the President give the speech to the nation declaring an end to "all major combat operations in Iraq" with his podium placed in such a way that the huge banner would dominate the background for the entire speech? The entire episode was, by most accounts, carefully and elaborately orchestrated. But I'm sure the banner hanging behind him during the speech was just a happy accident. I'm not suggesting, but stating the clear fact, that the american people do not believe in this war any more. And if any of them were to get a DP account and say so, you would bash them as being unamerican. Apparently real Americans are a minority these days, even in America. No, I'm saying whenever a shitcan presents itself, carefully extend the foot in the backward direction, take aim and thrust forward with as much force as possible. And make sure to wear your good shoes, the press may be around to take pictures. It was a direct reponse to your quote about misleading. Which makes your red herring remark a red herring. Fucking brilliant. Seriously, you've been to law school haven't you? If the republican right actually ever do succeed in making free thought illegal, I actually think I would like to have you assigned to my case.
To suggest that the administration lied about intelligence is to suggest these same people did as well. Otherwise, you are most welcome to post a source to back up your assertion of "lies." I doubt you can though, but wouldn't it be a feather in your cap? Apparently you didn't read their quotes. Or you presume they have a magic crystal ball to look into the future. Looks like it to me. How about you? Why make up excuses for there words? Had these been republicans making the same comments, are you suggesting your tone would be different? Who voted to authorize the use of force? Democrats? Republicans? It's clear to see who you call out and who you make excuses for you. You just finished a nice round of excuse making for them. You don't have a point. It's just mindless drivel that goes from one set of talking points to another, hoping something might stick. You don't always have to be a wuss. Take responsibility for your self-loathing and blame America first comments, or stop making them. Which works best for you? Not creative enough nor original. You aren't the first to use a General's comments in an attempt to justify blaming America first. See my previous comment that somewhat relates here. Things that in turn would make you proud to be an American again. Lacks substance. Have anything better? Logical reasoning and science "and stuff" wasn't needed to see you clearly had no idea what you were talking about. Indeed, you were owned, but then facts don't really matter to you anyway. Only the message matters! Doesn't matter, the bottom line is, the facts matched up with my claim, which you said was wrong. No point in trying to spin it now. You were wrong, as usual. That's the beauty of sourcing information Was already explained by Commander Chun. Wishing it were not true won't change the facts. You were wrong. You are not a spokesperson for the American people. I'm sure you'd like to think your ego had as much power, but alas, you appear nothing more than deranged and unhinged driven by hatred for Bush and self-loathing through blaming America first. What it all boils down to is, you are nothing more exceptional than the average self-loathing liberal. Apparently you have more experience with shit than I do. No idea what you are on about here. Different way to say "cut and run?" And you got owned again with the links between Iraq and al qaida. But facts don't matter do they? Which tinfoil frequency are you tuned into? Never-the-less, you still find it fun. "Spank me daddy, I've been naughty!" Most liberal responses are based on weepy feelings. At least you admit it. You forgot one. After attacking your country, be sure and play a victim by claiming that "anyone who disagrees with you is a fascist." That ones popular and really makes you seem like the victim. Problem is, it's a bit outdated. Nah. Winning would probably be an insult to you. I wouldn't want to hurt your wittle feewings
Did you totally ignore the cheney youtube link I posted that showed him lie on meet the press and then lie during the vice presidential debate about lying about it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRQM4tjOVc0 I could go find a post a lot more but I could spend my whole freakin' life showing you facts and they wouldn't sink in, so what's the point in wasting my time? Nope. I think they were talking a big game. I think either they didn't have the balls to do it, or they were too smart to do it. See, I can say that because I don't have an allegiance to any of those people. No matter how many times you say I am a democrat, it will not make it so. I know you've been taught for the last six years that that tactic works, but it won't work here. Let's keep something in mind though. A lot of people who voted to authorize force(this includes both republicans and democrats) would of liked to see more diplomacy. One of the main factors of them voting to authorize force was to actually give their demands merit in the eyes of thuggish Saddam. It honestly saddens me. I'm not being simply rhetorical here. You are representative of what a large portion of our political culture has degraded into. For you, the entire disucussion is defined in partisan terms. If I disagree I am a whiny liberal in your eyes, or you at least make me try to look like one. You should talk to your lord and master about having someone in his administration take responsibility. Unaccountability seems to be their 11th commandment. Where did the call to start using that term(blame America first) first come from? Did that come straight from the RNC? What would make me proud to be an America again is having a President that, instead of politically attacking others in order to have his agenda furthered, would actually walk the walk. This President basically, one could argue, became President by smearing John McCain in the 2000 primaries. McCain was actually ahead going into South Carolina primaries. Bush's campaign, not surprisingly, attacked McCain's patriotism and war record. John McCain, fought bravely in a war that Bush dodged(as many of us would have if we had the opportunity) and spent years being tortured, and if he thought he could help his country, he may do it again. THe Bush campaign, without any decency did their damndest to strip him of his honor. The sad thing is it helped Bush become President. Then he did the same thing in 2004 attacking Kerry's war record and patriotism, after having gotten out of going to Viet Nam completely. I'm not trying to bring up with old baggage for the hell of it. This speaks volumes to his character. All this stuff about Bush's supposed love for the troops is bullshit. I mean that's the only thing I can conclude, given how he has treated those that have gotten in his way politically. So yeah, it will basically make me proud to be an American again when we have a President that actually has integrity and not just the ability to make others look like they don't. I was not suggesting that I was. I was suggesting that the majority of Americans polled shared similar views as the ones you attack people on this forum for. I do believe I represent the American people more than you. I have a love for my country, not for my party. Actually, I don't even have a party. Every single one of your beliefs regarding the direction this country should go in is run through a partisan political filter. Mine is not and I still think that's true of most of the American people. What links? The links Cheney was shown to be lying about? Seriously, which ones? If there were better ones wouldn't he have chosen to lie about those on Meet the Press instead? The one that blocks out fox news. Actually, you're the one that comes off like a whiny little bitch. Anytime anyone says anything that could even be remotely damaging to the party of God, you get all defensive. Do your feelings get hurt easily? Is the republican party in that bad of shape? You are a master at twisting one's words. Seriously. I could try to compete with you at that game but I would surely lose. I want to win. I challenge you to find a quote of mine saying I think we should withdraw immediately. I think we should probably do whatever the Iraq Study Group recommends. I'm not sure why, but I have faith in them. I would like nothing more to see a flourishing, stable democracy in Iraq. But I don't think it's going to happen. I just don't think it was a realisitic goal and probably wasn't worth the cost of going in with such naivety. You can try to paint me unpatriotic all you want, but I AM closer to representing the American public in those terms than you are. And that's probably why your party won't hold the majority in a few weeks, thank god.