For your own sake, stop lying, she was not a child, by definition a child s one that has not reached adolescence, and she has. If you continue to lie, I will not respond to your polemics. She was 9, and as mentioned before, she was not like today's 9 years old's, it was common during those times with everyone, their culture was like that. The enemies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) never criticized him for this, and he had many enemies. We both agree that people of old were different, e.g. some of the ancients were giants (depending on what kind of Christian you are). What makes it so hard for you to understand, if our religion is fake, and we are so ashamed of this, then why should we not delete this, we don't because there is nothing wrong with this, and we don't delete nothing from our religion unlike the bible. The rulings concerning marriage has to do with whether the person "has reached adolescence or not", and NOT "has the person reached such an age or not", and this is the same with your bible. Catholic sources suggest Joseph was 90 and Mary was 12. We find that your God, who you claim has created this great universe, has entered through the vagina of a 12 year old woman, this is what I call blasphemy. Really these topics are against you, what we really should discuss is how on earth something like this can happen to God: Because then we are dealing with the fundamentals, we generally already have the same marriage laws, no point discussing that.
No I am not but I have open options. What does your religion offer ? Will it make me a better human being ? As I see here christians are like madmen who escaped from a mental institution ready to slaughter mankind in defense of their religion. They talk of their god but theres hatred. So what do you offer ?
Wow thanks for the compliment - I didn't know we Christians are madmen who are ready to slaughter mankind in defense of our religion . If that would be the case then most of Asia should be a nuclear wasteland .
So that's just an opinion - me & my guys being madmen . That's good to know , there's huge difference between an opinion and proclaiming that your words are the universal truth .
It is the true religion sent by God, and it offers salvation from eternal hellfire and instead gives you eternal bliss. Don't take my word for it, I suggest you visit here and read about it in your own pace, study carefully with an open mind.
It's very sad indeed that you're being so ignorant.... & defend someone who abused an innocent child. I'm going to disprove your ignorance once again using your islamic texts. 'A'isha (Allaah be pleased with her) reported that Allaah's Prophet (PBUH) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311) Did you just read the above? Taken as a bride? In other words, he had sexual intercourse. Dolls? You really think she was an adult enough to play with toys? She still had her innocence as a child for God's sake. Another one, A'isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981) And another one: Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to medina and stayed at The home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by The hand and made me stand at The door of The house. I was breathless Then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into The house. There in The house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to Them and They prepared me (for The marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in The forenoon and my moTher handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Bukhari Book #58, Hadith #234) Aisha (innocent little child) describes her tragic situation from the hadith above. Notice how she says unexpectedly and how her mother *handed* her to him like she was a piece of candy. She had no choice in this and she could not make her decision. You make your decision, if you want to stay ignorant and think she was a grown up lady that was *blessed* by the messenger of Allah. She playing with dolls (even after marriage) also disproves your opinion on her being adolescent. Girls rarely reach adolescence at 7 or even 9. To add to all this embarrassment, marriage to a girl who have not started her menses is permissible in Islam. “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise†[al-Talaaq 65:4] This is the explanation from an Islamic website: "In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate – because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty – the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry."
Nice try, but you have failed as usual. "Taken as bride", but it does not mention "sexual intercourse", does your bible not teach you not to lie? Adolescents have dolls too not just children. Perhaps to practice raising a child? Adolescents have dolls too not just children. It is definitely not a sign of being a child. Also note, her friends came for her, not the dolls. This narration proves she was adolescent, good job. 1. "When does puberty start? Although puberty usually starts between ages 8 to 13 in girls, it may start earlier or later. Everyone's body changes at a different time. Whether you have breasts at age 10 or have not started your period by age 14, do not worry. Everyone goes through puberty eventually. " (http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/ECon...name=07103&title=PUBERTY+IN+GIRLS+&cid=HTHLTH) As you know the marriage was consummated at 9, and at 9 it is possible to be an adolescent, check the scientific article above. 2. "The premenstrual syndrome (PMS) is a condition in women where certain symptoms occur each month before a period. PMS is sometimes called premenstrual tension (PMT) - but increased tension may not be the only symptom. Many different symptoms have been reported. The most common are listed below. You may have just one or two symptoms, or have several. * Psychological (mental) symptoms include: tension, irritability, tiredness, feelings of aggression or anger, low mood, anxiety, loss of confidence, feeling emotional. You may have a change in your sleep pattern, in sexual feelings and in appetite. Relationships may become strained because of these symptoms. * Physical symptoms include: breast swelling and/or pain, abdominal bloating, swelling of the feet or hands, weight gain, an increase in headaches. If you have epilepsy, asthma, migraine or cold sores, you may find that these conditions become worse before a period." http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Premenstrual-Syndrome.htm As you can see from the narration you brought, Aisha (may Allaah be pleased with her) said she was ill, she was breathless, her mother put water on her face to cool her down. These are signs of going through Premenstrual Syndrome, and a brief explanation of that has preceded. 3. From the narration you provided, she was losing hair, and that is another sign of puberty. Source: http://www-hair-loss.blogspot.com/2007/12/normal-hair-loss-hair-loss-during.html The above demolishes your core argument that she was a child. If you continue your lies, then know the curse of God is on the liars. If she had no choice then she would say so, handing over someone does not mean force, your twisting yet again does not work. Really pathetic attempt, yet again. The only thing that will support you in this regard is if you bring a narration where she said that she had no choice. Rather we find numerous reports that she was pleased, and she became on of the greatest Scholars of Islaam, many Hadith are narrated from her, if she was forced why would she narrate his Hadith to us? The answer is simple she was not forced. I have disproved your satanic claims, read them over and over and over again until you comprehend. The verse is referring to "engagement" and not marriage, the marriage is consummated later during adolescence. Another lie exposed. Are you not getting tired of getting proven wrong so many times, when will you give up? What strikes me so much is that you are willing to be dishonest and lie, something which is not encouraged in your bible.
When seeking knowledge about Islaam you generally do not start reading the Qur'aan, but you learn about the basics, which you can find here.. The site is categorized, start with 1. "Oneness of God" and it's sub categories, then move on to other categories and their subcategories. That's the best way. You will get a very good understanding of the foundations, that will allow you to learn more advanced things. But there is no harm in reading the Qur'aan, you can do so here., make sure that you choose the "Dr Muhsin" translation (this is important), other translations are not so good. Finally, you will come across many many lies, so don't believe anything you read/see on this forum, on the news, on Islamophobic sites, on youtube etc..
You are promoting your website at the cost of discouraging someone from reading the Qu'ran? You're a fail musim! Good job!
IsraeI, From above, you have disproved nothing- Absolutely nothing and no strong evidence was indicated. You're just stating a biased opinion which to defend a man who took a 9 year old girl to his house for sexual desires. I was not trying to argue because there is no point in arguing with an ignorant man but I pointed out clearly the flaws in your understanding of Islamic texts. I will remind you again of the hadith below: Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Bukhari, Book #73, Hadith #151) Sahih Al-Bukhari indicates to you once again that she did not reach puberty and that was the primary reason she was allowed to play with dolls. Apparently, dolls were not tolerated... Are you saying that she being taken to his house and treated as a "wife" does not mean sexual intercourse? I am sure it meant more playing with dolls... Your Islamic scholars do not disprove my opinion. Do this homework. What does "consumated" mean according to your Islamic scholars? Most of them approve that it means sexual intercourse. Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Bukhari, Book #62, Hadith #64) Yes, in today's world but was it permitted back then during Mohammed times? Again, your opinion here was disproved by Bukhari. I already did. Here is another one which indicates how Mohammed approached this "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." (Bukhari, Book #62, Hadith #18) So he made her lawful to him. At what point exactly, did he say let me discuss this with her first? At what point, did she have a choice? The verse I posted previously shows how *unexpectedly* she was handed over to him. Regarding the last point I made: Where did it indicate engagement exactly? It is referring to divorce. Since when divorce occurs before marriage? Read the islamic website reference that I posted once again. You can refute all you want but the bottom line, your hadith indicates the following (I am not going to discuss this embarassing topic any further because I made my point): 1) Aisha was 6 years of age when she was engaged and 9 years when she moved to Mohammed's home as a wife 2) Aisha was still playing with dolls at that age because she did not reach puberty 3) Mohammed had sexual interacourse with Aisha at the age of 9 (when she moved to his house). 4) It is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry, according to your Quran and Islamic texts.
When will you learn from your mistakes? You have just added fuel to fire. You pretend to be some knowledgable guy, but really you get all these lies from Islamophobic websites. Up until now it is you who has not proven anything (you only pretend to), I have destroyed every single one of your arguments and I will do it again: The Islamophobic website you got this narration omitted the reference for the text in the brackets, here it is "Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13" So who is talking in the brackets, is it Bukhari as you claim, no it's commentary from someone else who came centuries after Bukhari, and the reference has preceded. Another thing is that, dolls are not even allowed in our religion (you said it yourself) except for the purpose of trying to practice raising a child. Another refution against your stupid claim that adolescents cannot have dolls. Just go to a florist and you will see teddy bears being sold to grown up women. Shame. Just bring the proof, or remain silent. Where is the proof? You give me definitions with no proof. Even if you do, who cares, she was an adolescent, as proven to you over and over again. Bukhari has not disproven anything, the narration was not from Bukhari, it was commentary on Bukhari. Liar. This was not during the time of marriage, it was the very first time he asked her father for marriage, so your "unexpectedly handed" argument fails, you are making it sound as if she was handed over 5 minutes after this conversation which is not true, it was 4 years later, AND it says "asked", he could have said "no", which would strengthen your argument, but he does not, the arabic culture of that time was to not marry off daughters to people whom they had pledged to be brothers, so he was asking that question, just a question, and in reply Muhammad (peace be up him) said that it's permissible in Islaam, and this permissability is for everyone not something specific to him, so again he was asking a question because of his ignorance of what the religion said about this, as you know he was a convert. Refuted. Divorcing someone you are engaged with, that's what it is talking about, go to the very same site you are referring to and you will see it being explained, if not reply to this post and I will explain it myself. This summary is more appropriate: 1. She was Adolescent - She had the symptoms of going through puberty from the narrations that you provided. 2. There is no proof of your so called claim of "sexual intercourse", even if you did she was adolescent. 3. And it is not permissible to marry girls who have not reached adolescent, but rather they can get engaged, and consummate when she has become adolescent. 4.Her father did not object 5. None of the enemies of the Prophet objected this (he had many enemies). 6. This practice was common during those times, times were different and so were people. 7. Laws of consent have recently been changed (e.g. 10 in california) because of the change in people. 8. Jospeh was 90 and Mary was 12, according to catholic sources, and you don't see anyone attacking this. --- Once again, painfully refuted, when will you retire from lying?
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Bukhari, Book #73, Hadith #151) The islamophobic website where I got this from is: http://www.sahihalbukhari.com/sps/sbk/ - The official Sahih Al Bukhari website Do not become biased now when I caught your lack of knowledge... This is serious and you're not picking cherrys here, this is your religion.... Do you see now how you continue to embarrass yourself? Al-Bukhari is Al-Bukhari... that includes the brackets and whoever associated authors. you just got yourself grilled... To add to that: Fath al-Bari according to wikipedia ("Grant of the Creator") is the most valued Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, written by Ibn Hajr Asqalani.
Why do you keep omitting this: "Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13" That's the reference for the commentary in brackets. Your deceitful tactics may work with the ignorant, but not me with me sir. You did not get it from there! Liar! because even that site places " (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) " at the end of the narration, which is the reference for what is in the brackets. No bias, just refuting your lies, and I'm doing a very good job. That website is run by my brothers, surely I know what they are quoting. Check my second signature, it's one of the sites of their network. You keep exposing your lack of knowledge. No I don't see it, don't teach me my religion. You have as usual lied again, claiming that such and such website claims to support you, when that website does not at all. You really should be ashamed of yourself. You have just been grilled! What a useless post you made, it contained so many lies again, it's amazing! ---
So what was your point exactly? Just so we're clear here, you want to pick out the words in brackets which was written by Fath al-Bari "the most valued Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari" because it refuted all your biased opinions? The reason I did not include it originally is to avoid confusion in the reference format but since it was published in Al-Bukhari (which as you know is authorized), there should be no problem. Again, do you want to cherry pick the good stuff out of Al-Bukhari? You just did that, so there is no reason of continuing here. Do not over-grill yourself, like I said before - do not defend something that is not worth defending. Oh and just in case you missed my last point again, "Marriage to a young girl before she reaches puberty is permissible according to sharee’ah, and it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point". Islamic website Source with verses from Quran and Hadiths.