Of course he did it by the will of God. He is united with God. He is God manifested in flesh. John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?†John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.†Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?†The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.†John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,†says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.â€
We need to hear that from Jesus not from you or Bible writer/editors. This is similar to "I and my father are one", which means they are united in purpose. Whoever saw Jesus's teaching at time saw the Fathers teaching. Again, this is not an explicit passage where Jesus claims he is God. These are just bad people who were stoning Jesus because they THOUGHT he claimed to be God. But as Jesus in this passage himselfs says : "Many good works I have shown you from My Father" So he did not do these works himself, but it was the father who allowed him to do certain miracles. It's our believe that God only says"Be!" and whatever He wants to create will be created. The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it : "Be!" - and it is. (Quraan 2:117) The word that was with God, was a word of the words of God, and that word created Jesus (flesh that dwelt among us) Again there is nothing from Jesus here. It's not Jesus speaking. We agree, The Father (God) IS greater than all. ----- I don't like to explain bible verses, Ive done it too many times, for each verse you bring that you think means Jesus is God, I can interpret it in a different way. The best way out for the Christian is to bring the long awaited quote from Jesus where he says "I'm God"... but we know such a verse does not exist. We end it there. Regards SP
So now we have went from "you twisted it" to where we can delete parts of the bible that you disagree with? I think you have just shown everyone that it is not me who is twisting what the bible says, but yourself. I thought this was a discussion about what the bible said, not just the versus you want to handpick which have been very few so far. I'll gladly address any verse you want to throw out here in the thread. FYI, I would like to hear you address the verses and their contexts. You didn't answer my question. Who is being referenced in Isaiah 9:6? "a son" as indicated in the verse is singular, not plural. As for Psalm 82 (which mind you, has no association to Isaiah 9:6): This is a chapter generally understood to be in reference to judges, not the form of "God" as you are trying to make it out to be. You are pulling it out of context.
I can address those passages, but when I do you will get some more verses, to be frank I'm a little tired of explaining them, so we make an easy refutation, we say that someone other than Jesus speaking. alot of in the bible have been named "son of God", even David has been named "the begotton son"... being given this title does not prove Divinity. Like i said before, other people have been called "God" in the bible, that said, so again it's not a proof for you to pick a verse where someone is calling Jesus God, we don't knw what that person means. What we need is Jesus saying "I'm God" if you don't have such a quote, I suggest you take a break, I won't entertain anything other than that. From now on, If something is not Jesus' speech, it will be dismissed based on it being not from Jesus but by other men, I'm not interested what other people call Jesus. Regards sP
I won't get anymore verses. I would like to hear you reference these verses in their context. You didn't answer my question... still... who is being referenced in Isaiah 9:6? So in other words, you are now omitting over 3/4ths of the bible but you want me to try and explain why I believe what I do? I think we need to take a step back and look at how Christians believe that the entirety of the bible is the authority for what we believe. This is why we believe the way we do. We clearly see in multiple locations that the bible teaches that Jesus is and was God. Clearly you aren't accepting of that, but this is undeniably what the bible teaches. Just looking back and from my posts, others and myself have shown you where the bible teaches that Jesus is God, but then you resort to "hey, that's not fair, that doesn't count!". It is kind of like when my 4 year old daughter wants to play outside with a ball and she has the mentality that if we don't play by her rules that she is taking the ball and going back inside even though the rules were far broader when we first went outside. Just so you know, in your original post way back on page 1 you were quoting Paul (not Jesus) trying to prove your point. So which is it, are you accepting the entirety of the bible as a basis for Christian beliefs or not? You are flip-flopping on that only when it benefits your points.
Lol this is rich . You 1st ask where it is written that Jesus says He is God and when you are provided whit evidence you ask for Jesus Himself to tell you that . Do not worry you will hear that from Him . But you'll be in a really hot place
I already told you, I can explain them, but I'm in multiple threads explaining bible verses, I dealing with a number of people at the same time, so we make a simple refutation, which is that it's not Jesus who is speaking. Whoever is being refered to, you must understand that being called "God" does not mean you are God!...because as I told you others have been called God in the bible, it does not mean they are, blame you bible translators/editors for this. To make things worse, in the bible Satan has been called God: "The God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4-4 In short I'm trying to avoid 3/4th of the bible, I have refuted all of the passages which you thought were evidence of the trinity, and we shall suffice with that. I don't want this to be a thread about explaining the entire bible, I noticed everytime I refute your so called evidence you search for more. The rules are broader than that according to you, that is your opinion, which is incorrect. I don't accept any of the bible except for when it agrees with my religion. I use it sometimes to support my belief that Jesus is a Prophet. ---- We can safely conclude that nobody after a number of posts has yet to bring a quote from Jesus, saying "I am God". This quote does not exist, and I find that extremely embarrassing for Christians. Regards SP
You need to have faith and be willing to understand. You're only using words as you see fit. You're not consistent and you seem to be unable to see the truth. I pray that you someday will see the light.
There is no faith without evidence. For someone to be called God, we at least need to see that person claiming to be God, this is a major flaw in modern day Christian doctrine, I don't need to go into anymore detail, I have seen enough.
I'm not sure If Jesus do it, we see any change in SP! so late I think. then who win the prize? nice, love to agree but have seen many strong faiths without any evidence.
Nobody wins, because there is no such quote, it is non existent. I knew it before asking the question. @ Apocolypse (who is on my ignore list)- I don't want to hear Jesus saying it, I need to see a quote from Jesus written in the bible, which says "I'm God".. How can the alleged God (Jesus) put me in hellfire when he has never claimed to be God? That is injustice. My God (Allaah) is not injust: "This Day shall every person be recompensed for what he earned. No injustice (shall be done to anybody). Truly, Allâh is Swift in reckoning." (Quran 40:17) This verse is about the day of judgment, nobody will be dealt with unjustly, those who rejected Islaam will go to hell, and those who were Muslims will go to Paradise, some Muslims for their sins will go to hell before going to Paradise. And those who worship others Gods besides Allaah will go to hell for the simple fact that they never had evidence for what they did (e.g. christians). Children who have not reached puberty do not get judged, similarly those who never have heard about Islaam don't get judged.That is what I call justice.
Ah, well, you are much like me with the Quran then. I would simply recommend not creating threads about the bible if you are a) unwilling to listen to what it has to say or b) won't read it for yourself. It's fine if you disagree with it, but when you are playing dumb and making comments like "it doesn't say x, y, and z" when it clearly does... then we're just getting into pointless debates.
There is no faith WITH evidence. If there is evidence it's called science. Not including such "science" that is based on faith(for exemple evolution). Galatians 3:11: Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
I can ask questions anytime I want, but your problem is that you don't have the answer to my questions, you then look for a way out and try to present to me other things that I did not ask for and are totally irrelevant. I recommend you look up the dark history of the bible, there is ample evidence that it has been edited by men, read some of the books by Bart Ehrman or watch his videos on youtube, he completely destroys Christianity like there is no tomorrow. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free". - King James While you do that, it won't hurt to read some Qur'aan or the biography of the Prophet(peace be upon him), it won't kill you. Regards SP
That is the beauty of my religion. I haven't or never seen my GOD yet I believe. That is Faith and that is what keeps me in this life and till the next.
For me Qur'aan & The Prophet's tradition are evidence, that is where my faith comes from. The Christians make the claim that their faith is derived from their books, but the problem is that they have taken Jesus' message, then added something to it, taken something away from it, then they still still call it "word of God", which is wrong, it's no longer the word of God, but the word of men, and it becomes "no evidence" to support their belief/faith. So there is no basis for the modern day Christian belief, although we understand why they believe in that. Tell us more about your God @ Popo
In time brother. As I have said in another post as I am not a fan of the New Testament as it was edited much by men for self gains and purposes. I do believe in the Old Testament as it speaks more of the truth.
We believe the old testaments origin is the Torah that Allaah revealed to Moses: "It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'ân) to you (Muhammad peace be upon him) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurât (torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). (Quran 3:3) We believe it has been tampered with, just like the Gospel of Jesus, Scrolls of Abraham etc. "Allaah says about the Jews (interpretation of the meaning): “Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Torah), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?†[Qur'aan 2:75]
I guess we're reading different threads. As far as I know I haven't avoided any of your questions as you have mine. If I have, I apologize and please refer me back to them so that I can make a clear answer to them. Based on this discussion, Bart Ehrman isn't a good reference for you. He accepts the Gospel of Mark and the Epistles of Paul as teachings from Jesus. According to this thread, you don't accept any of that. Or do you now? I'm not sure considering how many different angles you have attempted to take in this thread. Agree with the verse you quoted above. I also do have a copy of the Quran, and I've even read some of it. The difference between you and I is that I'm not going to sit here and act like I know something about something I don't.
Whatever its called may it be Qur'an or Old Testament we have something in common. It is a very small way, yet a start that we could co-exist without all men fighting.