Unfortuantely, innocent Muslims sometimes do get bashed by the media for no fault

Very often we criticise Islam in this forum for being an intolerant religion. I certainly have objections to certain sects of Islam (esp Wahabi) that promote hatred of non Muslims and medieval ideas of justice. But I have many Muslim friends whose company I love. They don't carry religion on their sleeve and are good human beings. Its really sad when such people are harassed by the media. Please see video below and post your views

[video=youtube;XdfIW34HKLs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdfIW34HKLs[/video]

 

I'm not surprised by this, and I'll tell you why.

In Australia, we have just had a group of Muslims calling on all others (Muslims) in Australia to fight AGAINST democracy and freedom. They want Sharia law in Australia.

We accept these people from shit countries where they supposedly fear for their lives, and give them homes, welfare money, jobs if they are wanting to work, etc. - the Australian way of life involves freedom and democracy. It also involves protecting Australians from harm.

Tensions are high because we have this group of people trying to turn Australia into exactly what they originally needed to get away from. It isn't going to happen, and when we've spent days listening to Muslims protesting our way of life - things get heated.

Maybe the guy is a nice, innocent fellow who disagrees with his fellow Muslims in this country - I am neither condemning nor condoning treating him in any particular way, I can't, not without knowing all the facts.

All I know is after this past week a lot of people are starting to question whether or not we should ever have offered asylum to these "people".

 

With due respect, I condemn your statement calling - "shit countries"
a country can't be bad, only the rulers can be bad, I would request you to re-phrase your comment, as it could "hurt" many innocent ones feelings.

The original fact on the ground level is, the western nations are sick of muslims especially for the fact since 9/11. Even before this attack the world had a mis-understanding of muslims and this just grew since 9/11.

Now, they begin to assume all the muslims are terrorists and all have ill-minds, they have to learn the fact, these muslims are also from human race and if they are on a wrong path, its just they were brainwashed with the same.

Obama is a muslim, his father was a muslim, I don't think he has taken Baptism, correct me if I am wrong. Indian ex-president Abdul Kalam was an Muslim. So, all muslims aren't bad and all don't have the false ideas. Its just a group of mis-led individuals/groups

As, you had mentioned these groups were trying to convert some thing out of Australia, its the group you should condemn and if your legal system allows you, you could arrest those with necessary proofs and laws.

I would like to see people respecting the other individual ir-relevant to his caste/creed/religion.

 

I'm sure it could hurt people's feelings - but so do plenty of things in P&R. The fact is people who get granted asylum here do so because they claim they are coming from shit countries - by which I mean, countries where women and children are not safe, people are killed for ridiculous things, etc. To me any country where you can be whipped for drinking alcohol is shit - hitting people, particularly women, in public, for such things is shit. That's where I stand on it.

Here, we don't see all Muslims as terrorists - that isn't the number one issue. For us, the number one issue is they come here and then make no effort to integrate themselves with the community. We don't care what religion they are; what we care about is the fact that rather than coming here for a better life as they originally claim when being granted asylum, they just want to try and drag our country into hell - to make it a place where women are second class citizens, where alcohol is illegal, etc.

This will NOT stand here - Australia has never and will never support Sharia law - it is un Australian.

As to Obama, I don't know that he actually is a Muslim - he was raised Muslim - however I don't know that he is now; he certainly claims not to be.

I never said all Muslims are bad - nor did I condemn all Muslims in Australia for this large groups actions; what I said was that because of this tensions are high and therefore it likely had something to do with it; whether this guy was guilty or innocent. Try to read what I say before replying please; it's frustrating to have to repeat that I am not condemning Muslims in this post, or my last - only discussing the current situation.

We can't arrest every Muslim here who wants Sharia law - that isn't illegal - so your idea of arresting them wont work. We have freedom of religion here; but the problem is this is less about religion and more about a bunch of people trying to fuck up my country who should be sent back to where they came from; it can't have been that bad if they are trying to turn Australia into the same damn thing.

Lastly; religion is a part of a person. You must judge someone on their beliefs and actions alone - so an individual who you are forming a judgment on, you can't just make religion irrelevant. For example, I met a Christian who told me being gay was an abomination and gays go to hell - I told her, "I'm a good person, but I'm also bisexual - do you believe I'll go to hell?" - and she told me yes. I will judge her based on that - just as if there was a religion where people were taught to hate Indians you'd likely judge these people and not ignore that fact as you are imploring others to do.

Oh, and for the record, I was not talking about India what I said "shit countries". Most problem immigrants here are from Pakistan, Lebanon (three tried to rob my girlfriend last week and last month shouted some perverted BS at my little sister on her way to school) and Sudan.

 

again with due respect, I would still condemn the statement - shit countries
its not about their feelings alone it has various factors to notice, as some innocent ones are living out their lives for the sake of the riches, (just as an example, the african nations)

About hating muslims, I wasn't imposing this allegation on you, but in general mind of the people ever since 9/11 in special. I have come across various "muslim" hatred topics and articles, one can't hate every one of the religion because 30-40% of them are ill minded, we have other 60-70% innocent ones.

lol!!! about hell and heaven, its going to personally depend on the individual if he believes in it or not, I can't make a say for you or even for the matter for my very own family member. We respect individuals rights

The reality for these freaks to act as retarded is very simple, in their nation, they are subjected to a strict rule. I have come across articles, where it mentioned to look a girl was a blunder and his eyes would be plucked out - gee!!!
When, these are left on a free land they become sex freaks, they forget the difference between a mother and a girl friend as they were caged for so long, now they are wild animals let free.

According to my way life, I was taught to respect elders as elder brothers/sisters and younger as younger brothers/sisters. We don't call elders by name. We add an "uncle" or "aunt" or "elder bro", "elder sis" if they are much elder than us. Its all about in the self discipline and the way you were taught or educated in your younger life.

about sharia law, yes!! every one has a freedom of speech and religion, but the same individual doesn't have not the power to over turn a country's rule. Any one who makes a hatred speech, provoke, involved in violence should be arrested.

About your gf and sis, I would condemn such an action by any retard. The problem over here is, these attacks aren't mainly because of their immigrations but because of poverty and laziness to work harder for the pennies

I hope there comes a day when every one turns either to Atheists or respect other religions and its customs (which are non-violent in nature)

peace!!!

 

I appreciate you don't like the term "shit countries" - but I still stand by it. I'm not saying everyone there is shit, or anything like that - only that I consider countries where women are thrown in jail for being raped or people get bashed in public, legally, for consuming alcohol, shit.

As far as hating a religion based on what percent are sick minded - it depends largely on the circumstances. If Muslims stayed in Islamic countries then yeah, I don't really care if only 30% or 40% are "ill minded" as you said - but if they are in MY country, then I feel that is MY problem. Here we strive to make Australia a nice place; equality, freedom, democracy. When there is a threat to that, it effects everyone, and I believe it should be wiped out. If I had kids I wouldn't want them growing up in a country where the enemy (people who hate human rights, freedom and democracy) are living right next door.

When I say about religious beliefs and judging a person on them, what I mean is, if I know it is a fact all devout Christians sacrifice babies (I know they don't, this is just an example) then obviously I will judge all devout Christians.

Where I come from people are typically more polite to elders; however we are not taught as intensely as in many other places that one must respect an elder - we generally believe that you should respect those who have earned it.

I agree that hopefully one day everyone becomes an Atheist - I believe in a world where no one is obeying a "god" out of fear people would be able to along a lot better.

Peace to you too.

 

that's right, we have to see people as they are but anyway have to accept this fact that we prejudge about people when see their religion, nationality and other appearance on a guy in the first and need time to familiar with that guy, this is a normal I guess. it is sad thing but Muslims haven't good reputation in the world and beside some nationalities shown aggressive attitude.

yeah according to Islam you are right Obama is a Muslim because his father was but Obama living in USA and according to facts there, he is Christian beside his father was Atheist as I heard.

 

I am not sure if I should support or condemn the statement where "people are fear of god"
actually its proved psychological fact, that because of the faith in god people have been in miracles, people have to have faith in themselves, but if they are weak hearts, they need faith in an external power, which we could call as god. I wouldn't mind if all people see god in a single form with just a single custom - help others and god will help you, this would be equivalent to the atheist, as there would be no harm to other people.

its not being or against an atheism or any other factor but I think it should be up to the individual in his form of thought and no one should influence his/her way of life


In sanskrit, there is a famous thought - Sarvejana Sukhino Bhavantu - it means "let the entire world rest in peace and harmony"
peace!!!

 

As a recently converted Muslim, I have to say the I approve of almost everything from the above video.

1) The idiotic camera man who used ethnic slurs and profanity to provoke a Muslim man was fired, and appropriately so.
2) The MediaWatch organization which exposed the issue did a great job of highlighting something which is a large problem in the US. In the US, a news team can follow you and harass you with a camera in your face the entire time you remain on public property. If you get agitated and touch them, as the man did, it is considered assault and is a crime. While I don't think access to the press in public should be made illegal, many of the paparatzi and newsies have become a group of obnoxious pricks, and the call to damage their bottom line by changing the channel is a cool thing, in my opinion.
3) Gad Amr was charged with a crime for his involvement in riots, neither because, nor in spite of the fact he is a Muslim.

In the words of Janet Napalitano, the system worked.


As far as the other discussions so far on this thread, about shariah in Australia, shit countries, abuse of Muslims as a group, etc etc etc, I really don't see anything in this video that is very directly related to those discussions. Not saying those discussions aren't worth having, or that your points are or are not valid. I just don't consider this video as exemplary of any generalized prejudice. Individuals will always carry individual prejudices, depending on who they are and where they are from.

 

Unfortunately, innocent Muslims had to suffer, but that's how the world runs. It's hard to make everyone realize that innocents should not be targeted. i fully sympathize with those who had to suffer for no fault of theirs. Even I have many Muslim friends, and I know it's not good on the part of the media, especially the western media in some countries.

 

I really feel sorry for the immigrants in Australia if this kind of stereotyping and hate crimes are popular and justified. They'd be better off in "shit countries" IMO.

 

Typically there isn't "this kind of stereotyping" in Australia; and certainly there is less here than in other great countries such as America, and FAR less than in the UK. (I think both the US and UK have more reason to stereotype though, so this isn't a dig at either country.)

One cameraman being a douchebag is not a reflection on the country as a whole; if it were then just imagine how we'd see India, Helvetti! I'm relatively sure you know this, too.

Anyway, my point wasn't that it was OK - only that currently there is some tension here regarding the Muslims; in any other non Islamic country where a large group of people staged protests to eliminate human rights, freedom and democracy, there would be a similar outcry - and sadly when this happens some people do say or do stupid things.

I'm not justifying it - I don't need to justify it - but I'm telling you that this isn't unique to any one country and while abhorrent, there is still a reason why it happens. That isn't justification, it's just fact.

The Muslims who want no human rights, freedom or democracy would be better off in shit countries; countries that lack these things - that's just logic. They come here and want to destroy our country, when really they should have just stayed where they had all these crappy things to begin with.

And I'm sorry that so many of you seem bothered by the phrase "shit countries", but IMHO countries without human rights, freedom and democracy, countries where you can go to jail if raped - they're shit.

 

I think this is the same thing Babak pointed out, and it is entirely legitimate. The fact of the matter is, as long as Muslims are running about asking to be governed by Sharia in nations with stable and legitimate governments, they are going to get push back from the natives of those countries. As long as people claiming to be Muslims are running about bombing things and killing innocent civilians, there are going to be people who respond negatively to Muslims in general. For these reasons, as a Muslim, I stand against those who ask for Sharia within nations with stable governments. I condemn in no uncertain terms those who, in the name of Allah perpetrate acts of violence against other people, be they Kurds, Jews, Israelis, Americans, Hindus, Indians, Ahmadis, Atheists, Agnostics, Sunnis, or Shia. I would ask my Muslim brothers to stand beside me on this.

Alexis, this is standard communist dogma. Equality for all. If we cant eliminate poverty, lets make the rich nations poor. America's new found multiculturalism promotes immigrants who come here and never integrate. Its comedy because many of these people come from very impoverished nations with strong socialistic policies such as nationalized health care, etc. They come to America to flee the poverty, and then push for policies that would make America just like the nations they fled from.

In my opinion, you should never apologize for success. You should never apologize for asking immigrants to adopt your culture. You should also never apologize for the policies and rules set out by your country that make it great. You'll find the words "Misery loves company" accurately apply to most of your would be critics. In most cases, they most certainly do not have your best interests at heart.

 

Great post Nadir. (You'll forgive me if I don't use your full name, wont you?)

I appreciate it - and agree whole heartedly with everything you said, but in particular the last comment - thanks. ^-^;

 

Helvetii why do you hate Australia so much? Fuck.

 

a muslim delegate (of India) sometimes back, in a rendezvous with the Indian PM Dr Manmohan Singh complained that they are treated as terrorists in the society. He on his part reminded them that in the '80s, particularly after the assassination of the then PM Indra Gandhi (she was shot by her own bodyguard who were sikhs), every sikh (Dr Singh is a Sikh) was considered a terrorist in India.

 

I dunno bout US but I've lived in the UK for a couple of years and even though there is enough reason to stereotype Muslims there I found it on the whole a very tolerant society. But yeah a right wing political party called BNP is gaining popularity there, mainly on the issue of immigrants and specifically against Muslims. But I think its far more tolerant of Muslims than some other European countries.

Of course, I agree with you

I love your response, Mr nadir of knowledge! I just can't figure out how someone who was and is very critical of Islam converted to Islam

Usually its the other way round!

 

The more moderate voices coming from Islam, the less people will feel the need to be critical of Muslims. Sadly, I suspect many of my reasonably educated and moderate Muslim brothers fear to make their voices heard for fear of reprisal against some of the more radical elements in our community. When I witnessed the overt hypocrisy of Menj/Awin who really cannot claim to be Muslim at all, I figured the silent majority of moderate Muslims need only a small nudge to gain the courage to speak out against such charlatans. If Babak can have the bravery to make his voice heard from a place like Iran, where the penalties for speaking out are severe, what excuse can a Muslim in America have for remaining silent?

 

Its the same logic that you apply to Muslim countries, do you actually believe that everyone out there is beating wives, killing daughters, and raping children? The only reason you think low of them ("shit countries") is because you don't hear Muslims condemning it (refer to your own thread). I apply the same principal here, when I openly see hate crimes and racist attacks by a handful of Australians going un-condemned.

An appropriate reply by you and darpie specially should have been more like " Its unfortunate that this kind of thing happened ...they shouldn't go unpunished... we shouldn't stereotype people on basis of their beliefs, color etc."

You and darpie got so worked up when I made a remark with a big "IF", it wasn't even anything personal. So can you imagine what the minority communities feel like when they are called "terrorists" on the streets? Stabbed in subways for being of color?

Sorry but these kind of comments just rub it in (and gets Aus more hatred from the communities):

^^ These comments look more like trying justify such actions. This thread was about an innocent person being a subject of stereotyping (don't compare this to the harmless stereotyping in US an UK which generally involves accent, food and such things) and hate and being condoned by an entire channel by editing out the footage and broadcasting it to show him as "another aggressive muslim"

There could have been 3 possible responses:

1) Condemning
2) Subtle justification
3) Blatant justification.

You guys chose No. 2. I think Obamanation pretty much summed it all up:

How does that make you different from a terrorist sympathizer?

"As long as people claiming to be Americans are running about bombing things and killing innocent Iraqis, there are going to be people who blow up planes in their buildings."

Sounds familiar? You are behaving the same way as the people you (and I) condemn.

I don't "hate", I just don't approve of many things going down there. When minorities are being subject to violent discrimination which is mostly going uncondemned I can't help but feel sorry for them. Maybe if you had condemned the attackers rather than attack me for sympathizing with the victims, my opinion could have been different.

I would suggest that all of you go back and listen the last 2 minutes of the videos again. Did the guy feel the need to bitch about Muslims in Australia to try and give some reason (justification) for the crime?

You should. As long as their culture doesn't involve criminal activities its none of your business, what they eat, what names they give their children or what they choose to wear. You can't force anything down their throats. Multiculturalism is a good thing and something to be proud of. I'm just glad that your views are not representative.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread for the fear of pissing off people but then I figured that I shouldn't let that stop me.

And before that sar420 guy says this I'll say it myself, my views are personal and not representative of anyone.

 

Sigh.

Helvetti - when I called the cameraman a "douchebag" is making it very clear that I disapprove of his actions; you mentioned my other threads but seemed to fail to take note of the fact that I do condemn racism - but this isn't racism. Islam is not a race.

You might think that we should let anyone into our country and have them bring every aspect of their culture with them while refusing to incorporate any of our own - but we don't, we being many here and we being Australia.

To bring their own culture, provided it isn't harmful to others, is fine. To come here as a group of people who breed uncontrollably and end up turning whole areas into hell holes is not OK.

While there are plenty of Muslims here who are fine, any area with a majority Muslim population in my country is horrid - there are higher crime rates, in particular where the Sudanese and Lebanese Muslims are concerned - these areas are also classed as high risk areas by police; namely because of the number of violent attacks on "outsiders".

It's our country, if we wanted large areas of it to be changed to be like other countries we would do it ourselves - we don't.

We welcome people to our country who have a genuine desire to be Australian; not to spit on our human rights, on democracy or on our flag.

You may not think countries that allow wife beating, send rape victims to jail and stone women to death (buried to their necks while males are buried only to their waists) are not shit - but I disagree.

Something else you might want to consider before feeling so bad for the guy is the fact he was leaving court for a violent crime. Him, along with 2000 others, fucked up a local business - then attacked 100 cops who attempted to break up the riot.

Frankly I believe we need to start screening the people who get in here a lot more carefully, with a few thousand of the mother fuckers trying to get sharia law into my country I am pretty pissed off about it - thank god there is an election soon - we can't keep "helping" out these boat people who come here, don't work, live on handouts and ruin whole communities.

We're Australia - we're not Sudan and we're not Lebanon. We are a multicultural society; but that doesn't mean accepting people who want NOTHING to do with our culture. They do not belong here. Multiculturalism is about accepting other cultures; but it isn't about fucking your own country up in the process - they can pray, they can have their own restaurants, we have special bank loans just for Muslims, special religious schools, etc - but when they try to fuck our country up then it's really going too far.

And this isn't the same as your judging Australia based on 5 Indian attacks (one of which was an Indian lighting himself on fire as previously discussed, another was a Sudanese immigrant nut job, another was an Indian killing his own two Indians housemates, etc.) - this is thousands of people.

Bah.

If you want to have them ruining your country, then do that. You take the boat people and give up any human rights and watch previously nice, safe neighborhoods turn into places full of violent crime and benefit cheats.

I just don't want it in my country - Muslims who don't come here and then try to change the country into a place where women, in particular, are constantly abused and people can be stoned to death, fine - the rest of them though, you can take them, you can take their culture.