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The return of Slavery

Discussion in 'Copywriting' started by Kraven2, Jun 12, 2010.

  1. dyadvisor

    dyadvisor Peon

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    #21
    Boy, Kraven you really started a wildfire. But a very excellent one, that has not got out of control.

    Personally, I believe no pleas for work, or work available should be posted on this section. That just brings out the willing slaves and all too willing slave drivers. However, I will not discuss rules, as I was somehow give an infraction before for doing so. I say data from 3 years back t shows the DP owner in the top ten adsense earners. SO what? He deserves it, and also has a few bills to pay

    Now if those types and the one drunken commentator (do nothing, prove nothing) left, yes it would be a better forum.

    I can shed no tears for others that want sympathy because of their country or going rates. In the United States there are 1.5 million insurance agents, if 750,000 left tomorrow it would only help the others. That is the real problem, so darn many people that can hit a few keys on the keyboard and become a writer. There is no license of college requirement. If 75% of the low level writers quit writing, the prices would automatically rise. Does my hospital Indian doctor, a super specialist, come to America and say since I am an Indian I should only get $12,000 a year? I know my heart specialist, also an Indian, makes over 3 million dollars a year. And he deserves it. Now if I write an article for him to drive traffic, I am certainly not going to charge $5.00

    So Webdeveloper1 is the sky falling in? Yes for people that think so. People do not believe I get $250.00 an article. If you had the courage and determination to not be the average status quo, you would see that opportunity is there for every that wants to go thru the struggle. In 5 years there will be very little outsourcing when it comes to writing. For cheap style writing the technology is already there. All slaves and slave drivers will be equal -- all unemployed. There will be people getting $300 an article. I wish everyone did. That takes time, but there are those here willing to take the steps and time and hard work to get there

    It is to those I congratulate, no matter what what step they are currently at, as long as they have the courage to fight above the masses of beggars.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
    dyadvisor, Jun 12, 2010 IP
  2. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #22

    I do not know what that would cost "us". That is what I am referring to, the best things in life are free. :) I fully believe that the bad folks should pay for their own errors, not the innocent. So many rules are made that make the innocent people pay for what the bad people do. It is a rotten way for those in power to deal with problems in their group.


    You made me think with your last statement. We here in this thread could all be banned and DP would not suffer in the least. But I am sure you are talking about "we", as the whole group of members. Correct me if I am wrong.


    Where do I see site stats ? I have been looking at the tag section.
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jun 12, 2010 IP
  3. only words

    only words Member

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    #23
    While I'm not too keen on the government analogy, Blue Star Ent. is right on the money. What are the things that you see in common with most clients and writers on DP? For the most part, clients offer batches of 'easy articles' that need to be done 'quickly', while writers complain about getting paid a paltry sum. When I see the word 'easy' written in an advertisement I cringe. Maybe they consider it easy because it doesn't involve manual labor, but anything I write takes time, energy and care. Perhaps the topic doesn't require much research, or maybe they want *cringe* a spinner. Whatever the case may be, there isn't much respect for writing as a fine craft and art.

    Everyone has to start somewhere, but when I see a writer with a registration date of '08, '07 and before that is still offering articles for $2.50 I personally think something is very wrong with that picture. Writers here have to stop operating like one person content mills. When you operate like a content mill you are a low paying clients' dream. Most of these writers don't require a deposit and they end up costing less than ordering from a content mill. With the cost of living in a rural area of the United States, I'd have to write 20 articles priced at $5 a day to pay my bills. I can't say where most of the writers on DP are located because I haven't done any extensive research, but I'm sure just one or two articles at the same rate would suffice.

    I've never ordered articles from writers here, but I'm willing to bet that a substantial number of writers here are, in fact, charging exactly how much they are worth. I'm talking about writers from ALL over the world here, so please don't think that I am referring only to those that are not native English speaking. Plenty of people who speak English fluently can't write worth a lick. Also, there are plenty of non native English speakers that write exceptionally and command a much higher rate. Unfortunately, not too many are here. I'm not trying to be mean but everyone isn't suited to be a writer.

    If DP instituted some sort of minimum pay, wouldn't they also have to pre-screen writers? Wouldn't they also have to offer a minimum skill level? What would the minimum be? If that does happen I foresee many clients marching down to getafreelancer.com and the like in droves.

    Ultimately, making more money comes down to honing your skills and branching out. If you can write then you can certainly build a website, create an email address and start contacting potential clients. The only thing that they can say is 'no'. Sometimes when a person has been accepting a low rate for their writing they have a hard time justifying a rate hike. They feel like losing their existing clients isn't worth picking up some new ones. Well, if I had been writing 20 articles a day for 10 clients and by rising my rates I could reduce my workload while at least making the same amount of money I would do it in a heartbeat. Sometimes old habits die hard.
     
    only words, Jun 12, 2010 IP
    YMC and Blue Star Ent. like this.
  4. WebBuddy

    WebBuddy Well-Known Member

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    #24
    Well, interesting discussion going on here :) Did not notice this thread or I would have jumped in sooner. I made my stand clear in several of the threads out there at DP section BST->WTB. I'll do that again here:

    - $1/500 words is slavery. Period.

    - $5/500w is no better. But somehow, it's not as insulting, at least as long as you are stuck there LOL

    - People who wish to hire low may do so by all means but PLEASE PLEASE do not take the name of INDIA and the Indian market to vindicate yourself. It only makes sense that while you are doing business you wish to make profit. Please go ahead and cut throats of those willing to offer them, but don't blame it on those starved people. It's like saying, the lamb had nothing to eat, so I slaughtered it so that it may at least get salvation!! Just say "Yes, and I am doing business" - that's all there is to it.

    - Any person wherever he/she may be in the world would like to rise high and much above all his/her peers (social circle...whatever). I am in India and what I earn is more than most Engineers earn over here. And yes right now I am working at the low-down rates of $1-$2.5/100 words. Do I wish to stay that way? NO WAY!! I want and I WILL rise, no matter what. My earnings are equal to that of my husband. And please note that my husband is highly educated and employed as a top manager in an automobile company. He should actually be earning 5 times his present salary. But such are the standards set by the Indian corporates and outsourcing salary levels that one gets caught in the rut. Anyways, my point here is, I work less than half the no. of hours that he does and I earn almost the same as him(minus the perks and bonuses for me :( ) and yet I am nowhere near satisfied. Why? This is not my destiny. I was not born to be this way. I will do something better and build a niche for myself. Something exclusive and that is the way I would like all my countrymen to think. Plus when I am in a situation and place where there are better options I would be a fool not to choose it.

    - The call centers have NOTHING in parallel with this outsourcing business. Plus a salaried job brings several perks and a certain level of security. So, it's not an all give-give situation.

    I agree with Kraven 2 on all points except that of the policing, I hate policing of any kind as long as it does not start affecting the place adversely. Though so many people here offer such low rates, there are better paying clients too and if a writer is not good or motivated enough to find such clients, then probably they just deserve to be paid less.

    PS: Starting out at the bottom doesn't mean you'll stay there. Some will, some won't. Some will learn valuable lessons at the bottom of the barrel. Life's about choices, right? And everybody seems to be somewhat educated on these forums, so I guess we should let them make their choices! We can, in the meanwhile continue to debate the virtues and horrors of $1/500words ($300 a month) .

    PS1: Karven2 has mentioned in the initial post that there was a thread which talked on people working 5 days a week and 8 hours a day. Just a small correction - there was no mention of a weekend. And btw, weekend in India is typically only Sunday(except for the software industry which enjoys a 5 day week like US)

    Take Care Everybody!

    Have a Nice Weekend!
     
    WebBuddy, Jun 12, 2010 IP
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  5. contentboss

    contentboss Peon

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    #25
    Much as I agree with the problem of slave wages, I can only really see it going one way - the emerging next generation of productivity tools are going to knock the bottom out of the rewrite business. I have a beta on my desktop that can take a sentence, and not only change words and phrases within it on a contextual basis, but also 'enfold' the sentence if possible, to create a really new version, much as you might hand-rewrite it. Once the bugs are out of it, and the neural net is properly trained and optimized, it will probably be released, maybe even as a free add-on. Combined with the syntax checker, half a second of processing power replicates 15 minutes of human work.

    Waffle over, I foresee a widening of the split... the 'hamburger article' writer getting paid less and less, and the 'quality' writer getting paid more and more.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
     
    contentboss, Jun 13, 2010 IP
  6. 24788

    24788 Peon

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    #26
    I can see your guys points, but death can be right around the corner for poverty stricken families. It does suck that it's such low prices, but many people need this money no matter how crazy it is. Outsource everything no matter what happens to anyone. It's the way business works today. I didn't create it or contribute to it since I like working on my writing skills, but it's happening none the least.
     
    24788, Jun 13, 2010 IP
  7. dyadvisor

    dyadvisor Peon

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    #27
    This discussion is getting very interesting, and I hope no fools come in to ruin it. Very good variety of viewpoints. I disagree with confused on only one point, but could be wrong because of not living in the prehistoric wage area of the Philippines or in poverty stricken India. This is my personal feeling from an American point of view.

    The statement was made that all people want to rise up. In America, yes all people do want to have a better lifestyle. However, they personally do not want to do it, they want the all too willing American President and Congress to do it for them. There is poverty here, one of five children do not get enough to eat. Often that is the fault of the government parent moocher, trading food allowances to buy personal needs. For example, someone on assistance gets me 5 prime steaks. I in turn give them money to buy alcohol and cigarettes, while the children go hungry.

    Because writing in itself does not require much skill there are 15 times too many people writing articles. This is their American style welfare for survival. This gigantic overload causes a big blockcade barrier for those not satisfied to make just survival. However is is extremely difficult to pull away from the crowd and not fall into diggin back and forth.

    The solution lies within. Characteristics such as a real desire to write, self confidence, providing your buyer confidence in you, finding the real way to learn, avoid all the get rich quick books, etc. Then you need determination and persistence to learn that article writing is only the start not the finish.

    When I say I received $250 an article that was true (before I became disabled.) However I am guilty of not mentioning that the article writing was only the start. It was the proven confidence builder my client needed. From there it led to correctly setting up the home page, inner pages, and writing PR releases. That then lead to ghost writing ebooks, building the local connection with yellow page type directories, and writing their business summaries. In turn then they wanted the writing of their monthly newsletters and even writing their email letters for their auto responders. This is the picture you need to look at.

    View writing as your key to opening the door of opportunity. This way you are not fighting the masses but out- thinking them. There is so much business from this angle. So for those of you that want to take a new viewpoint. I will be setting a new business self-tutor course (FREE) for 10 DP members, along with free guidance to do so. You cannot save the world or change the rules, but improve your life first, and then give a little help back.---------------------------------------have a great day------------------
     
    dyadvisor, Jun 13, 2010 IP
  8. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #28
    This statment made me remember the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" book where the youngster asked the rich Dad where the "secret" was for gaining wealth. The rich Dad took a finger and tapped on the head of the youngster and said; "Right here.".

    We all have a brain, and each brain has such powerful abilities that giving your time to "calling in the cavalry" ( DP or the "gòvernment" ) is actually a lost opportunity. It was an opportunity to use your gifts to attain the next level and instead the opportunity was lost. Which form of "gòvernment" you choose is usually in two forms :


    • Have others think and decide for you
    • Think and decide for yourself


    Which form is superior ? Which form brings more happiness and a sense-of-fulfillment ? Which form truly represents "slavery".....:eek:
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2010
    Blue Star Ent., Jun 13, 2010 IP
  9. topcontentwriter

    topcontentwriter Peon

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    #29
    You bring up a great point. We writers need to show our clients that we provide value. Whether it's value in the form of increased Web traffic, more ad clicks, more newsletter subscribers or more buyers, writers do provide value. The problem is, this value diminishes in the face of "10 articles for $3" offers I see all over the Web. I don't think it's DP's responsibility to implement minimum pricing. It should be the writers who have to demonstrate their value and set higher prices.
     
    topcontentwriter, Jun 13, 2010 IP
  10. MarTh-

    MarTh- Well-Known Member

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    #30
    Prices stay same or worse than 3 years ago here it is part from recession and cheap outsource but we must adapt to market, we can't not have a free market it's not just to have a set cap for prices on writing etc.

    Again dyadvisor has quality replies here
     
    MarTh-, Jun 13, 2010 IP
  11. pro.seods

    pro.seods Peon

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    #31
    Wow! Some strong points here. I think with the coming up so many indians and asians has lead to the decrease in the prices here as well as on the internet. The problem as discussed above is they are satisfied with what they get. They are not thinking at a point of view that they are dealing global players here not some local in the country where there are dirt cheap prices for each and every service.

    Also, about the article prices you know this is what most people do. They hire local people who take 50-60 Rs per 500 words and thats like 1$ and sell them here at 3$/500 words. More than double. This is the business they are doing. The profit margins for them is high but for the people in US and UK is too low. Again this shows the standard of living in different areas of countries.
     
    pro.seods, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  12. DreamingBig

    DreamingBig Well-Known Member

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    #32
    If people want to hire other people they should be able to offer them at least a decent amount. I don't know how some people can wake up in the morning without feeling guilty from underpaying others. I think that some love to find jujubee's and step on them for a living. What I get upset about is when someone offers me a content writing job at a low rate and then I see that they are asking for work like triple times the amount they are paying you. I have people that work for me sometimes and try to split and be fair with them - sometimes I give them all of what I would have made unless if it is for a Squidoo lens that I'm doing for someone else then we just split pay which I believe is fair.
     
    DreamingBig, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  13. Webdevloper1

    Webdevloper1 Active Member

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    #33
    This is what my point is.
    Pay is relative term,if you are working in European countries then you cant think that somebody will come & pay you according to US standards.(until & unless you prove your quality.)
    If you are getting good pay according to country standard then its not slavery.
    Most of you who are providing article writing service & has their own team of writers.(who are offering writing in bulk) at $5/500 words as per standard(some one has noted this figure as a standard rate).do you think they are slaving their writers??
    Not at all. they are paying Good Pay according to standards.
    For me i am not atall doing anything like pro.seods has said like buying for $1 selling at $3.
    We have our own team of writing including 2 editors for our content websites.Everybody is happy & enjoying the good pay(which is very good by country standards)
    can anyone call it slavery?
    You cant under estimate the intelligence of Indian people(someone has noted this).Most of them will give you better quality then any other English writers.

    So i think Pay & Standard is relative term.
    India has 232,000,000 Total English Speakers from them 226,449 are speaking English As First Language.
    Now have your own calculation,
    if you are getting Writer from 226,449, then there is more chances that you will get good writer at the pay scale which is Good.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
    Webdevloper1, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  14. Webdevloper1

    Webdevloper1 Active Member

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    #34
    I would like to know whats this decent pay is?
    its 3k for you.
    its 5k for me.
    So its relative term & depends on how you live & where you live.

    I am really happy to see healthy discussion going on & just putting my thoughts as an Employer.
     
    Webdevloper1, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  15. WebBuddy

    WebBuddy Well-Known Member

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    #35
    TRUE.

    TRUE. And hence the great influx of the IT sector and the BPOs as compared to other growing economies. India gives you value for money.

    Well, that statistic does not mean much. The number of English speakers may as well be in some proportionality to well educated Indians. So, if somebody is well educated he/she is very likely to get a better paying job than to work at a mere $300 = 6000INR.

    It's good that they are being offering people a full time job. Honestly, I have nothing against you or any such employer.

    I am against people who would want to take up a $300 full time job (or $1 per article jobs) and slog for 8 hours a day (or say 10 articles a day which by any standards would take 6-8 hours to complete). They have this huge opportunity called the Internet and yet they are looking for cubicle kind jobs. That's pathetic !!
     
    WebBuddy, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  16. Webdevloper1

    Webdevloper1 Active Member

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    #36
    A Big OHHH...OMG!!!!!
    $300 = 6000INR???
    Where you live? tell me truly!!!
    According to my knowlege 1 USD = 46.82 ~ 47.0 INR
    So with my maths $300 = 14,100 INR.

    As an Offline business i am consulting & advertising in newspapers - hiring writers for our websites,as per my above response not all are up to the mark,so i am giving training & proper guidance by our editors, i am investing My own budget on adversing as well as 2-3 months of valuable time & i am doing pathetic work?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
    Webdevloper1, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  17. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #37
    G'day :)

    Lets see where we are in this thread and what I wanted from it:

    - Get something that bugged me off my chest - Check
    - Raise discussion about the payments of writing jobs - Check
    - Throw a controversial idea in the mix(DP stepping in) - Check
    - Get some good and valid arguments for or against - Check

    Mission accomplished I would say :)

    Bottom line, and this is only my opinion of course:

    I do realize that living standards are not the same everywhere, and the money I need to pay the bills differs from the same in India. However, that is not the issue for this discussion.

    My point is not paying writers the bare minimum of what they need to survive, because that still would be the same as slave wages.
    My point is paying writers what quality writing is really worth.

    When I see job posting like:

    "looking for quality writers, that can deliver perfect English articles on *insert subject here*. Articles must be unique and pass Copy-scape, be easy to read. Writer must be available throughout the day on messenger or email(So the buyer takes up his time, for free no less!!) and be able to meet deadlines of *insert turn around time here*"

    And then have the nerve to offer $ 3 for a 500 word piece.

    I cringe, that is exploiting writers, no matter where they are from, because all of the above takes time (time = money), The research and writing take skill(Needs to be rewarded as well).

    I also fully realize that as long as writers from 3rd world countries sell themselves that cheap, it will continue, but I would not mind if there was a minimum pay per word in place on this forum.

    I can see the pros and cons of it, as was pointed out in this thread by several posters, but the way things are now, I think the pros outweigh the cons.

    Now, before people start crying that I cannot take the competition, that is simply not true. As I have stated from the start, thank god I am not relying on jobs like that, nor did I ever have to. I get PM's from people offering me crap like that all the time, who are utterly amazed when I send them off laughing, and tell them to come back when they have a decent budget, and are ready for some decent work. This thread I did not start for myself, but all those who are forced to write way below what they are worth.

    Last, I want to add that any decent writer, no matter where he or she is from, can do what I did. Set a decent rate(Decent is relative, but I set mine to $ 5 per 500 article, because that is enough to produce a standard article, of a decent quality, and the absolute minimum I will work for.) and turn down anything that pays less. I did, and it was never a problem gaining sufficient business to make a decent living.

    After time you will also find the higher paying jobs, like I have found them, going from anywhere between $ 20 to $ 150, first through sites like constant-content.com, later they will find you, as your name goes around.

    Just never back down from your minimum rate! Not even for a bulk order.

    My 2 cents a word :D
     
    Kraven2, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  18. Webdevloper1

    Webdevloper1 Active Member

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    #38
    completely agree & i am too in the queue.
    Ya dats certainly the issue when you claim about slavery.
    slavery broadly means forced labor & employer is not giving enough pay to worker so that employee cant even live properly.
    again its relative word & you cant say that particular is a bad salary.

    Ya well said.
    correct,nobody gets high paying job from the start,for that you have to prove your quality.
     
    Webdevloper1, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  19. WebBuddy

    WebBuddy Well-Known Member

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    #39
    sorry about the USD = INR thing, webdeveloper, was just a bit sleepy when I wrote that LOL.

    And yes, we have established some facts there made our points. Nice discussion everybody. Thanks !! I guess we are not offering anything new to the thread ... let's close it now.
     
    WebBuddy, Jun 14, 2010 IP
  20. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #40
    Forcing new writers into pay below their worth, is still the same in my book.

    Let me put it like this: When slavery was normal in the south of the US, there were plenty of slaves that were well fed, and could live properly, yet it was still slavery.
    Now this does not translate one on one to article writing of course, but by content buyers coming in with ridiculously low rates, and new writers not realizing their true potential, they basically are tricked into working below their worth.

    Now, before we repeat the whole discussion again, let me repeat that in my opinion the writers themselves are just as much to blame, for falling for it, but so are those content buyers.

    And before you start telling me that India story again, let me state that one of my largest clients is a DP member here, from India, who pays decent rates, and does not fuzz over it. So not every content buyer from India seems to see it your way. Even in your own country there are plenty of buyers paying decent rates for content, so the ones that don't are in my opinion exploiting writers.

    Just my opinion of course, but one I stand by.
     
    Kraven2, Jun 14, 2010 IP