The goal of Islam? (Or at least those in the Middle East)

To what ends Arnie? I know that the texts are there and I have read them in both books. Why continue to study?

 

And I figured you had read enough of my post when I asked you to find such in the New Testament. I was quite clear. And yet, instead, you offer an entire cartoon as some sort of evidence, while skipping completely over the absurdity that Henny covered in his excellent post.

No, they are not. And I see you failed also to come up with any sort of list where they are put in action. I've asked you for some very specific things, that you should have problem coming up with to validate you position, but you fail. And I understand why, because they don't exist

More importantly, you've failed to demostrate any intollerance to base this statement upon. So I have not failed to grasp it, you've simply not made a compelling case/argument to establish it in the first place.

I don't need to look at the kkk or the JDL. They are not flying planes into buildings, blowing up trains, subways, hotels, buildings, cars, being caught in plots to blow up planes, people, decapitating prime ministers, etc. There is no comparison here. You are basing an opinion on a hypothesis of "what if." And rightfully so, because without such an absurd opinion, you couldn't argue. To be honest, you have no argument as it is, it just keeps getting weirder without any substance.

No, your hilarious link did not address genocide. The only thing it has done, is allowed me to expose how silly and absurd your position is, based upon the post of another forum member. One need only read it, to see how little of an argument you really have.

You haven't even identified radical groups of the past to make such a comparison and I most certainly can tell you that you can't compare. You have nothing to compare it against! Which is exactly why you continue to overlook this without providing something comparible to validate your position.

I disagree with this too. The framework is the foundation of islam. Another "if" scenario here and understandably so, because you cannot identify such a framework in Christian or Jewish groups. You just assume it's there.

Their actions are non violent. In fact, it's a twisted mind who attempts to find moral equivalence in a non violent campaign (which is virtually non existant anyway) to stop the use of condoms to that of people who violently kill others, in the very same region by slaughtering them. There's simply no argument here. They are not responsible for other's desire to have sex. You presume they have some absolute power here to actually prevent people from doing so, yet the argument for comparing it to violent acts has no foundation in the first place.

So did small pox, but you don't see people trying to defend a disease by finding moral equivalence to the actions of terrorists. What a nut!

There's most certainly some manipulation going on, and I think most see whose mind has been manipulated here

I've answered yet another ridiculous attempt at moral equivalence, paragraph by paragraph and I've seen non writings that can be used for comparison. Perhaps you just imagined they existed? No specifics? I didn't think so.

What traits? You pretend they exist, you offer cartoons to draw a comparison, and you ignore the utterly absurd notion of what anything looks like when put into context. I can understand exactly why you keep ignoring it, and why you cannot find anything to compare it to, because you simply don't have it.

When you make up a phoney argument in order to tear it down, yes, it is a strawman argument.

Incorrect. You've provide absolutely no evidence. Not bad evidence, just no evidence entirely. You make assumptions, debate on hypothesis and offer nothing to back up what you assert. Meanwhile, I've offered a number of counters to your assumptions and you ignore them. Now you are resorting to the Crusades. Hmm, why did the Crusades start? Go on, you can spit the answer out when you know it. Who were the Christians fighting back against? You have to go back 900 years to make a comparison to today? That's what I thought. Meanwhile, we have every day examples right here in modern times that you simply cannot find any equivalence for.

No need for a reminder. It's quite clear it is "your" argument and yours alone! In 1.5 years, I've never seen a more absurd argument to try and equialize all religions based upon the sole actions of islam. This is not only humorous, but (to use an analogy), like discovering a new flavor of candy at the store! You still, after repeated attempts, have not shown any scriptures to that call for murder and genocide. The New Testament awaits you to expose it, but somehow you cannot.

You have to identify the writings of hate first. You've failed to do that. You've failed to identify the comparison, you've failed to identify scriptures, you've failed to show where they are being used by others to commit such acts. You've failed to illustrate your point, because your point has no foundation.

I have to admit here, this is the funniest debate I've had in a long time. Obviously you are asserting opinion only here, and have nothing solid to offer to substantiate your opinion. And I take it as just that, nothing more than an opinion. At best, we're going around in circles. You attempt to level the playing field by suggesting moral equivalence, but your equivalence fails. I point this out, over and over again, you pretend not to notice it and keep right on ranting!

In order to sway people into understanding a view point, you need to provide compelling evidence to do so. In your case, you've failed to do such. And apparently I'm not the only one who believes this. When Christians and Jews tart flying planes into buildings, blowing up subways, trains, hotels, cars, buses, people, chopping off heads, kidnapping media and forcing conversion at gun point, plotting to blow up planes, people and plots to chop off the heads of prime ministers, come back with your moral equivalence argument. When you can come back with a rap sheet like this, let me know. Because right now, your "opinion" fails on a magnitude of the highest order and has served for nothing more than a good laugh!

 

Let's agree to disagree. I see harmful aspects in all three of the major religions and you do not, no amount of writing from me is going to change your stance on it. I feel that I've made my point, so this is the end of discussion between me and you on this topic. If you want specific verses that preach intollerence in the Bible you can read Deuteronomy 13:13-17, there are plenty of others too.

Here are some good documentarys too if you want to know more about how I feel about religion. Richard Dawkins can put it into words far better than I can.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6370534978087426825 Richard Dawkins - The Root of all Evil pt. 1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6370534978087426825 Richard Dawkins - The Root of all Evil pt. 2

 

And I've pointed out how absurd these look in context. In fact, I did want verses from the New Testament, but I don't think that's going to happen. Too many times I've asked, and every time the response was silence.

Thank you. Now I'd like to share some with you:

One
Two
Three
Four
Five

Enjoy

 

When was the last time someone lopped off someone's head after saying "what would jesus do?"

 

The goal of Islam is to take out all Christians and Jews who refuse to convert.
And any non Muslim who doesn't convert. I'm talking about the final goal. Sure, they're sneaky right now, they know they can't reach their goal. So for now they just weasel around and tell others they come in peace

 

Hello brothers

I read all the fourms till now and I am very hurt by the comments posted by christian guys against a religion they dont know anything about. Without knowing anything about Islam how can u post such comments about It.

No religion preaches voilence and hatred among people not even Islam.Islam teaches about peace and non voilence and respect for other religions. We dont hate other religions as we are very proud of our religion and we have great respect for Jesus as he was one of our prophet.We dont want to kill innocent people nor is it in our religion but we cant let ourselves get exploited for a long time.Islam tells us to forgive if one strike u once but raise your voice against injuistice and oppression if it goes out of control which is true jahad ie holi war .

I want my christian brothers to read this to clear all their misconceptions about Islam:

Invitation to Islam, Issue 5, October 1998

A bomb goes off in a marketplace in Jerusalem. A suicide bomber launches himself into a bus full of women and children in Tel Aviv. Foreign tourists get massacred at a holiday resort in Luxor, Egypt. Villages upon villages get annihilated in Algeria. The list of events worldwide which have come to symbolise the 'Islamic terror' are endless. From the times in the 70's and 80's when Pan Am and TWA aeroplanes would be highjacked, to the mid 80's in war torn Lebanon where Americans and Europeans would be held as hostages for years; all such incidents have come to be identified with the religion of Islam. Such incidents from past and present have undoubtedly affected Muslims worldwide and more so in the West. Any Muslim, who wants to practice his/her religion and expresses the pious desire to live under the banner of Islam, is labelled a fundamentalist or extremist. Any Muslim man who walks down a busy street in London or Paris (and Paris moreso) with a beard and a scarf on his head, is looked upon as being a terrorist who's probably got an AK47 stashed somewhere on his person. Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up). However, are such beliefs and opinions about Islam really justified?

Exploding the myth

One of the many short comings which has arisen in the West, is judging Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people. By doing this, segments of Western society have deliberately played off the desperate actions of many Muslims, and have given it the name of Islam. Such behaviour is clearly not objective and seeks to distort the reality of Islam. For if such a thing was done - judge a religion by the conduct of its people - then we too could say that all Christianity is about is child molesting and homosexuality [1] whilst Hinduism was all about looting and breaking up mosques [2]. Generalising in such a manner is not seen as being objective, yet we find that the Western world is foremost in propagating this outlook on Islam. So what is the reality of Islam? How does one dispel the myths which have been created and spread so viciously? The only way to examine Islam is to simply examine its belief system. Look at its sources, the Qur'an and Sunna, and see what they have to say. This is the way to find the truth about what Islam says about terror, terrorism and terrorists. One who is sincerely searching for the truth, will do it no other way. The very name Islam comes from the Arabic root word 'salama' which means peace. Islam is a religion which is based upon achieving peace through the submission to the will of Allah. Thus, by this very simple linguistic definition, one can ascertain as to what the nature of this religion is. If such a religion is based on the notion of peace, then how is it that so many acts done by its adherents are contrary to peace? The answer is simple. Such actions, if not sanctioned by the religion, have no place with it. They are not Islamic and should not be thought of as Islamic.

Jihad

The word jihad sends shivers down the spines of many Westerners. They readily equate this term with violence and oppression. However, it must be said that the meaning of jihad, as a 'holy war', is something which is totally foreign and not from Islam. If anything, such a description belongs more so to Christianity and its adherents. It was terms like this which were used to justify the slaughter and pillage of towns and cities during the crusades by the Christians. By simply looking into the sources of Islam, one is able to know that the true meaning of jihad is to strive/make effort in the way of Allah. Thus striving in the way of Allah can be both peaceful and physical. The Prophet Muhammed (saws) said:

"The best jihad is (by) the one who strives against his own self for Allah, The Mighty and Majestic" [3]

In the Qur'an, Allah also says:

"So obey not the disbelievers, but make a great jihad (effort) against them (by preaching) with it (the Qur'an)"
(Surah Al-Furqan 25:52)

By controlling and fighting against ones desires, the Muslims can then also physically exert themselves in the path of Allah. It is this physical or combative jihad which receives so much criticism. Because of the sheer ignorance of this type of jihad Islam is regarded as terror, and Muslims are regarded as terrorists. However, the very purpose of this physical jihad is to raise the word of Allah uppermost. By doing this, it liberates and emancipates all those who are crying out for freedom all over the world. If the likes of the pacifists of this world had their way, then the world would indeed be full of anarchy and mischief. The combative jihad seeks to correct this as Allah says in the Qur'an:

"And if Allah did not check one set of people by means of another, the Earth would be full of mischief. But Allah is full of bounty to the worlds"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:251)

Such would be the corruption on this Earth if there had never been a combative jihad that Allah says:

"For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is mentioned much, would surely have been pulled down. Indeed Allah will help those who help His (cause). Truly Allah is All strong, All mighty"
(Surah Al-Hajj 22:40)

This combative jihad being both defensive and offensive, is something which is commanded by Allah upon the Muslims. Through this command the oppressed and weak are rescued from the tyranny of the world:

"And what is the matter with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose only cry is; 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors and raise for us from you one who will protect and raise for us from you one who will help"
(Surah An-Nisa 4:75)

 

…Continued

when it is said to them; 'Make not mischief on the Earth', they say; 'We are only peace makers'. Indeed they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive it not"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:11-12)

The hypocrisy of the West is indeed astounding.

By looking at the rules and regulations of this combative jihad it will be clear to any sincere person that this is indeed the religion of truth. When fighting an unjust enemy, no matter how unjust they are, it is forbidden by Islam that their retreating forces are mutilated, tortured or slaughtered. The treacherous violation of treaties and carrying out assassinations after a cease fire, are also prohibited. Allah says in the Qur'an:


"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:190)

Not transgressing the limits means not to kill women and children, for the Messenger of Allah (saws) "forbade the killing of women and children" [5]. Not transgressing the limits means that the elderly, the sick, monks, worshippers and hired labourers are not attacked. Not transgressing the limits means not killing animals wantonly, burning crops and vegetation, polluting waters and destroying homes, monasteries, churches and synagogues:

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"
(Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:8)

Try to understand these factors:

1] By using the many cases of child abuse and homosexuality by priests, Such a generalisation about Christianity could be made
[2] By using the incident of the destruction of the Babri mosque in Ayodya, India in December 1992 by Hindu zealots, such generalisations could be made about Hinduism
[3] Authentic - Reported by At-Tabaranee
[4] Years of sexual liaison with a White House aide, Monica Lewinski, has been proved against Mr Clinton. Since this time, a number of other women have also claimed that they have had affairs with the president. And this is the same man who propagates family values and to whom millions look up to!

[5] The beliefs which are contained in the books of the Shi'ites places them outside of the fold of Islam generally. However, upon the individual Shi'ite, the proofs need to be established before one can say that he or she is a disbeliever
[6] This newspaper no longer exists
[7] It is strange indeed that whilst the Western media criticises Islamic law for being barbaric and harsh, not a word is said about the fact that McVeigh too will be executed just as someone would in an Islamic state
[8] These two groups killed Arabs, Jews and the British. They are accredited with the massacre at the village of Deir Yassin, in which many innocent people were butchered
[9] Despite the fact that the UN has even made a resolution against Israel for this illegal occupation, no 'democratic peace loving nation' (like the USA!) has bothered to implement it

 

Lots of copy/paste:

http://www.google.com/search?q="By+...slam,+one+is+able+to+know"&hl=en&lr=&filter=0
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...combative+jihad+it+will+be+clear"&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...lief+system.+Look+at+its+sources"&btnG=Search

A cumulative cornucopia of islamic propaganda.

Of course, we can always go straight to the source to see how it fails.

 

Why would I give you verses from the New Testament when they are not the verses used as justification for groups such as the KKK?

PS: Do you care to debate anything that was brought up by Richard Dawkins in that documentary? I'm interested to see your opinion of it.

 

More importantly, why wouldn't you? Because you can't. Surely you don't think you are the first to come around quoting the Old Testament? That takes no special skill. Now if you wanted to make an impression, you'd have taken my offer to quote the New Testament.

I didn't waste my time viewing it. You said it was a reflection of your views (paraphrasing here), and given how absurd those views are with the weakest attempt at moral equivalence I've ever witnessed, what value could I possibly get from viewing "more of the same?"

If you come up with a new angle, let me know.

 

I was making a comparison between Christianity Judaism and Islam, why should it matter which testament the writings come from? If Christian groups are using the old testament in their sermons, whether they be normal sermons or radical sermons, that alone is enough to validate my use of the old testament when critiquing the religion. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to say, other then it is a weak response to try and force me into finding other passages when the ones I have provided are good enough for the point I'm trying to make. I'm not here to show my skill in finding old Bible passages, I'm here to make a point and the testament I use to make it is irrelevant when the religion in question uses both regularly.

Richard Dawkins is one of the most decorated scientists in the field of evolution. His views on religion are not unlike mine so the reason I posted a video of his was to show you a different angle of the same message. If you watched the video you might understand more where I'm coming from with my argument, he can bring much more evidence to light then I can and he can explain it more thoroughly. You seem strongly opposed to my views on religion, so why not challenge yourself to find fault in someone that is in your eyes equally wrong?

 

So you admit you cannot find anything in the New Testament. And once again, you make decisions based on hypothesis, using "if" to qualify and preface your arguments.

Honestly, nothing you've said makes any sense. Time and again, I've pointed out how absurd Old Testament scriptures that interest you are when placed in modern context.

Your argument has no foundation. There is no moral equivalence to draw upon here and your points fail, every time. So much so, that you skim right over my counter points and when I ask to provide sources.

oink

 

Listen, I completely agree that the old testament verses are completely insane, but that doesn't change the fact that there are Christian and Jewish terrorist groups that use them as justification for the acts they commit. I can't believe I need to spell this out for you. I am using them as an example because they are the exact verses that are used by these terrorist groups. Do you not see how ridiculous it is for you to expect me to find verses in the new testament when it is the old testament that is used by these groups of people to voice their hatred? Look at the KKK and other Christian groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, this is proof enough, unless of course you want me to find the exact verses that they use, which I can do, but I don't see why I need to when it is already evident that they are using them. I guess maybe you might not be aware of it since you dedicate so much time finding the faults in Islam without spending any time to find faults in the other religions.

My argument has more foundation then your hate for Islam does. You just choose not to see it, and that's your problem not mine.

Here's are some sources for you that show the similarities between Christian radical groups, Jewish radicals, and Muslim radicals.

http://www.mattszabo.com/God Hates Fags.html - Christian
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/cartoon-protest8.jpg - Muslim

http://archiviofoto.blog.excite.it/img/AMERICAN-BEHEADING.jpg - Muslim
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/lynch_2.jpg - Christian

http://www.mail-archive.com/is-lam@milis.isnet.org/msg01704.html - List of Jewish and Muslim terrorist acts

 

Is checksum the new g-world? Speaking of g-world, where did he go? Did he join the terror brigades or did you guys finally help him understand how absurd he was?

 

I have a problem with religion as a whole, but that doesn't mean I'm ok with terrorism. I think every single person that commits a terrorist act should be shot. It's a simple minded thought to assume that I support terror simply because I can see the similarities in terror between religions. Don't ever assume I support terrorism again, got that buddy?

 

He's busy with the DMOZ editors ... which is good

 

Where did I say you support terror?

 

You were alluding to it. I took the chance to make my stance clear, thanks for the opportunity.

 

No I wasn't. And that proves that you are indeed very much like g-wuss. I was merely pointing out my observation that you, like G-wuss, can't seem to grasp the idea that modern day Christianity is not violent. And before you spout off again without thinking by saying that I'm just another religous nut, GTech and others can tell you I'm not at all religous. Well, I drink booze religously, but that's as close as I get.

Welcome to DP "buddy", prepare to be constantly spanked, and not even know it.