The goal of Islam? (Or at least those in the Middle East)

Great points! And to this one, I'll add, that if muslims practice the "peace and tolerance" they try to portray their religion as, there wouldn't be a problem. But, we know tolerance isn't real, when scriptures tell them not to befriend others. We know tolerance for Christians and Jews doesn't exist in Saudi or many other muslim based countries. We know that the few place where their existence IS tolerated, Christians, Jews, Hindus and others face persecution. We know what's really preached when the infidel isn't watching

If only islam was really tolerant.

 

I haven't said anywhere that changes shouldn't be made in the Middle East, what I'm saying is that each religion has the potential to become radical as we can see with the wide spectrum of radical religious groups, groups that span through the whole spectrum of religions. Whether it be the KKK of the 20's the Jewish terrorists of the late 70's or the radical Muslims of today, each one of these religions is a deadly organism. I simply have a problem with one being demonized while the others get away without a scratch, that's all. They all have their hand in the cookie jar.

 

Nor had I said that you said that changes shouldn't be made in the Middle East. This is called a red herring. Besides the point, it's not a point of contention. It's like if I replied back and said "but I never said pickles were blue." You see? You never said I said it, but even more so, it has nothing to do with the discussion.

No one is getting away. What you fail to see is that little old women with blue hair are not flying planes into buildings. Old white men that wear shorts and black socks are not blowing up subways. Nice Jewish kids are not blowing up hotels and trains and cars and buildings and planning plots and on and on and on.

Your attempt to find moral equivalence fails. I'm just blown away (pun intended) you can't see it. You're trying to find a way to justify it, to make it seem less impactable and to have some sort of reason by comparing it to something that it cannot be compared to.

 

Must read today.

http://www.imao.us/archives/006130.html

 

Does someone know why people think the christian, jewish, and Islamic G-d are all the same?

It says directly in the Quran that Islam is not the same as the christian God, for it has no trinity.

I just wanted to bring that up lol, any reason why people are so confused?

 

I think you misunderstood what I said too. I wasn't defending the fact that they are committing a big sin. But, I don't agree blaming the whole community for one bad apple and yes, I just do my job to correct wrong information. For you, it doesn't matter, but for me, it is matter. Big or small, it is important to give correct information.

 

Dead Corn, I am happy too see that this discussion is getting more and more intelectual instead of simply "bashing" a religion. As long as, human being fail to control the "animal" in them. We will always see "violence" and "fanaticism". Read the history, we can say all the cultures, cilvilization, religions have the bad apples. Terrorism commited by Muslims extremists isn't something acceptable in this age, and so do what Christian and Jewish extemists did hundreds of year ago. So, before we label any of them as evil. Try to think that for a second, what actually happened??? Nearly all of them once had a great civilization. As example, most the muslims people today. Why are they left so far behind in term of civilization and knowledge? Weren't they once had a great civilization? You must admit that the Islam civilization in the past have contributed a lot of things in term of knowledge etc that brought us to where we are today just like any other civilization. So again, why are they where they are now? Then, you will start reading history books, searching for information on the internet and after all the hard work, suddenly...."Ahaks! This is where it started...The beginning of the doom that brought most of the muslims to where they are now."

Then you continue with your research, and try to understand how did Muslims built their civilization before they were directed to the wrong direction and finally you got the answer. You found a great secret! You discovered the truth about "Islam" practiced by those people that time, and the Islam the human population see today. You slapped your face, not to believe at first, that what you were taught in your childhood days about Islam were mostly lies. Full of corruption and contradiction with the true teaching.

What can you do? You go out and tell people, most of the time people who couldn't accept a different ideas about what they have been practising (Well, you know..they have been practising for their lifetime and suddenly you wanna say what they did were all wrong??? I think not only muslim, most of the people from any other religion would do the same thing...) start hating you, and voila, another "label" for you and some people will start avoiding you. But sometimes, you experience something completely different, you found someone who got the same idea as you! Then, you discovered internet and found many people like you around the world!

But then, you know though more and more people opening their minds, it is still not that easy, you are challenging an idea that has been praticed for hundreds of years. That already been accepted as the straight path by many of its followers. You can't approach them directly, they will never accept it. So what can you do? What alternative do you have? Again, with the help of god, you found a way! which is "knowledge"~! You know that is the best and the only weapon you can use... that is "knowledge".. which mean science, math, philosophy etc... Yes, that is the best way for you to discover god and it is also the best way for you to fight against those leaders trying to manipulate his people by telling them they are practising the right thing. But wait.... Knowledge isn't enough.. We learnt from the history, that knowledge is a very powerful weapon that sometimes it let the owner feels arrogant..yes! Arrogance will take us to destruction! It has been proven in the history, and its happening now, everywhere!

So, what can we do? We fight against ignorance with knowledge, and now knowledge itself bringing us to destruction!!! So again we asked god, and god showed us the light, that is "love"~!

Yes "love"! That is the answer, the answer that will show us the road to get closer to god! knowledge + love = god~!

 

Like I said, you didn't understand. No where did I blame "a whole community." It's an age old tactic I see time and time again. So much so, I even devoted an entire post to it, just for future reference.

Somehow, you took from:

that I was somehow blaming an entire community, when it was three very specific people. I take it the answer to my question then is no, we cannot set aside the defense of the suicide bombers for a moment and agree that there is a parallel in that the three suicide bombers were from Malaysia?

I didn't think we could, but it was worth a try.

 

Christ man, I think you're completely missing what I'm trying to say. I'm not justifying anything, everything that is happening is horrible. I just have a problem with someone calling Islam evil and sparing the other religions from that title aswell? OK?

And you said in your response to my post that I was trying to justify what the Muslims were doing by lumping the religions together. No I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm just showing that each of these religions have a bad side. I think the middle east is in a bad state, and I would like nothing more then to see these terrorist groups disappear or face up to the crimes they have commited. I might not have made it clear but now that I have I don't want to see any of these blue pickle responses, they don't make sense and they side track the argument from what we are debating.

Your ignorance is shining through in this paragraph. Do you really believe there are no Jewish or Christian terrorist groups? They don't show themselves the same way as the Islamic ones but they're still there. I wrote in my last message about the KKK and referred to the Gush Emunim Underground. You ignored what I wrote and instead tried to attack a point (moral equivalence) that is moot, a point that I already cleared up.

I will make it clear to you. I am talking about religions and why one cannot be more evil then the others. Here are my points, all three of them have radical terrorist groups, all three of them have writings telling when man is allowed commit horrible crimes such as murder, genocide, etc, and all three of the religions have liberated sects that do not follow these teachings. So tell me, how is one religion different from the other? Can you judge the whole muslim religion on the acts of it's extremists and yet spare judgement from Judaism and Christianity because you don't see their extremists with such transparency? How is it just to not treat them equally?

Do not respond by saying that I am giving a failed argument of moral equivalence. I will ignore the response because I see it as the straw man fallacy it is. Address my argument in it's entirety.

 

Not ok. You've consistently noted that "all" are just as equally bad. That is not only incorrect, but misleading and an attempt to make everything "equal" (hence, moral equivalence).

No, you are trying to say they are all equally bad. When Christians start flying planes into buildings, blowing up subways, trains, hotels, cars, buildings, decapitating others, killing others in the name of their God, etc, we can take issue with them, or any other religion whose ideology supports such and practices it day in and day out. The "blue pickle" argument was just a counter to illustrate the strawman you keep introducing. Did it finally make sense?

I beg to differ, I believe it is your ignorance that that relentlessly pursues a strategy of trying to put "all" on a comparative plane. You can write about the KKK all you want, but it has nothing to do with the subject, nor do any Christians, Jews or any other religions I know make excuses for their actions. At best, they are disgrace unto themselves, but to suggest they fly planes into buildings and blow up trains.

In essence, what you are trying to do, and which is failing every time, is to say that because up to 1984, a Jewish terrorist organization existed, therefore today, the Jewish faith is as bad as islam's actions of today. It doesn't work. Now if you had something comparative to this, you might be able to make an argument. You cannot equalize something that has no equal.

Your argument fails. Your attempt to equalize them all fails. One is more evil then others, there is no denying it. No one is judging "all" muslims based upon the acts of terrorists. The religion is judged based upon it's scriptures which clearly call for the death of others. And, in fact, those very scriptures are used to justify the killing of others all around the world, daily. Your attempt for moral equivalence fails, as I've demonstrated here.

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Ignore at will. Or grasp the concept of a strawman argument. In essence, that's what you've tried to do in virtually every post so far. To create a non-issue argument (see blue pickle reference) that doesn't exist (ie, blaming "all"), in order to beat it down. Problem is, it isn't working very well.

Your argument is addressed once again. And it fails, once again.

 

Right, I see what you're getting at but you still don't understand my point.

You cannot say one religion is more evil when all of them have groups that do the same things. You cannot say one religion is more evil when there are writings for each religion that justify these terrorist acts. It doesn't matter what happens today or tomorrow, the fact still stands there will always be a place in each of these religions for these types of crimes. Does it matter that the majority of Christians, Jews, or Muslims are disgusted by the acts of the radical groups? No, it doesn't. Do you want to know why? Because there will always be a place in their holy books for the horrible passages that encourage these acts of terrorism. Somehow they've been set in stone and again and again it will be used to carry out acts of genocide. You can't change it, it will always be like this until these religions are forgotten, if they ever will be. Today it's the Muslims, a few decades ago it was the Jews (in a limited capacity, but it was still there which is all that matters), and before that it was the Christians. There is so much transparency when looking at these religions as a group that it's ridiculous to argue there is a difference between them.

Each one of them has the framework to become radical like Islam, this has been demonstrated in the past with radical groups from each religion. Just because one is given more attention today do you think that it makes that religion more evil? That is such a backwards way of looking at the issue that it makes my head spin. Even today there are movements in the Catholic church to shun the use of condoms in Africa, effectively slowing down the process of fixing the AIDS epidemic that we see there. If that isn't evil I don't know what is. Of course it's not the same thing as strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a cafe but the ends of both are one in the same - dead men, women, and children at the hands of a sick midieval ideology.

You write with such vindication that if I were someone else I might actually believe what you're saying. The Muslim religion just like Judaism and Christianity hold a place to encourage these types of actions. You know that I can't find examples of Jews and Christians flying planes into buildings, but does that automatically make this problem a Muslim problem? No, that is an absurd claim, it is a problem with these religions as a whole. You have three bodies of faith that defy all reasonable logic while at the same time actively encourage the extermination of anyone else who disagrees with said faith. How can progress be made when this is the criteria for having faith? It doesn't matter that the majority don't agree with this, all that matters is that the few who do have been given a platform for their hate from these religions. The majority of people who follow Islam disagree with these terrorist acts, which is a trait shared by all three of the religions. How does this make Islam more evil then the others? It doesn't, the only differences are the numbers of people who subscribe to radical beliefs within the religions. These numbers change too often through history to use as an instrument for judging evil.

You're so focused on the here and now that you fail to see the problem as a whole. What if we manage to eradicate the Muslim terrorists, or what if slowly over time the radical Muslim trend ceases to have such a hold on the Middle East. What ground has really been made when the religion still houses a way for groups to relapse into hate and terrorism? This is the religious problem, there is so much ignorance needed to be faithful that you can't just shut away the chances for these types of things to happen again later down the road. It pops up again and again over time when situations become desperate and it is so much easier to hate and kill then it is to solve and make intelligent choices. I'm not saying there aren't problems in Islam, of course there are, I'm just saying these problems are present in every religion that requires an unchallenged faith in order to belong.

I am not arguing that Islam is free from blame for what is happening, nor am I arguing that because Christianity and Judaism have similar teachings that it somehow lifts blame off the acts carried out by reactionary Islamist terrorist groups. What I am saying is that there will always be a place for this type of hate for as long these religions are given the acceptance they enjoy so much. I conceide that there is nothing wrong with having faith in a religion, we are all free to make our own choices, but to put faith into a religion that fosters this type of ignorance and hate whether it happens proactively or not is something that should be given serious thought. Once you enter that realm of religious thinking it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish what is right from what is wrong. Why would an intelligent human being want to put themself into a frame of mind that dictates right and wrong based solely on the writings of ignorant people who came before them? This is the religious problem.

 

They do not all have groups that do the same things. I'm simply amazed to the depth you are reaching to find moral equivalence. There is none, yet you still try. The writings of each do not justify terrorist acts. You are welcome to post what you feel do, but I somehow doubt you will. I think you are "wishing" they did, but they do not.

As an example, take this post. Now do your research and find in the New Testament anything similar.

Now take this list, and find similar.

You can't, which makes everything else you are trying, but failing, to equalize, moot. If you can't get past these points, nothing else you say is going to substantiate your moral equivalence argument. It simply fails, on the grandest of scales.

I disagree, it very much matters today AND tomorrow. Saying something doesn't make it fact. You'll have to back it up with more than just opinion.

Quotes from these "holy books" to encourage acts of terrorism. Or is this opinion again? And should you actually find any, sources where Christians/Jews or other religions act upon these scriptures to the same degree islam does with theirs, to justify the claim of equality?

Sources to backup these "holy books" are used to carry out acts of genocide? Once again, you are attempting to equalize "all" with random references to others.

 

That's pretty much the best post in this tiresome thread well done Blogmaster

 

Thanks, I have my moments

 

G-Tech... you are making far too much sense.

And AMEN to THAT!!!

IN Christ

 

Right, I figured you had read enough of the Bible to understand which parts I was talking about. My mistake. Here's a storybook version of the Old Testament writings I was speaking of, they may be easier to understand for a first time reader.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html

These apply to Judaism (many of them are similar to those found in Judaism) and Christianity, a quick look through and you should understand what I meant by each religion having writings that accept murder and genocide. These writings are comparable to the Islamic writings.

You failed to grasp what I meant. What I meant was that what happens today and tommorrow does not effect the writings of intollerance that are found within these religions. They are unchanging in the sense that they will always be able to be used by radicals.

Look at the KKK or the Jewish Defense League, they use the same arguments that Islamic radicals do, the only difference is that they are arguing for a religion other then Islam and that they are able to be kept in line. If our land was lawless like it is in the Middle East you would see a much different KKK then what you see today. And that IS an opinion, but I dare you to disagree with me. Look at the roots of both of these organizations and you will see that they were very similar to the current Islamic radicals that you see today, only now they have been stripped of their influence by law and reason. This is not the case in the Middle East though, these groups are left to grow relatively unchecked, look at Hezbollah for a great example. You see you can't just blindly look at hate groups and terrorist groups without taking into account all of the contributing factors that help them grow or stop them from growing. At their roots they are practically identicle, the only differences being the religion involved.

I've addressed this above.

You cannot tell me that I can't compare the past to today when it comes to judging religion. It's a ludacris thing to say. When an institution is formed under the interpretations of a book you better be damned sure I'm going to compare what happens in the past to what happens today if that book remains unchanged. Just because interpretations of the majority become more tolerant that doesn't mean I can't make a parallel comparison between the radical groups of the past and those we see today.

The framework for radical Islam is based solely on the interpretation of hate filled writings of intollerance found within the Qu'ran. If similar writing exist in the Old Testament and there are similar radical Christian and Jewish groups there is no reason for me to believe that a framework for these religions to become radical is non existant. Quite the opposite infact.

Of course the Catholics aren't responsible for the actions of those who choose to have sex, but that doesn't absolve them from responsibility over the actions of the church they belong to. I'm referring to the Catholic church, a church that has made it a goal to stop condoms reaching the AIDS stricken Africa. Why did I bring this up? I'm trying to show you that the Christian religion isn't as innocent as you would like to think, and considering that my whole argument is that Islam is just as evil as Judaism and Christianity I think it's a very strong point for showing the similarities between radical Christianity and radical Islam. My argument was that the actions of both radical groups end up in dead human beings. Whether it be the Catholic church manipulating people or radical Islamists blowing themselves up, the results are infact the same, death as a result of religion.

It's not "getting through" because I can see the similarities between Christian writings, Jewish writings, and Islamic writings. If you scroll up you can see what writings I was using as a comparison between the ones found in the Qu'ran.

You distorted what I was saying. What I was saying, and what I was going on to explain in detail is that the traits that contribute to radical Islam are present in Judaism and Christianity. Infact if you read a little further down in my previous post you can see that I made it clear that I was not taking blame away from radical Islam by making the comparison, I was just simply making the comparison. Why? Because it obviously needs to made if there are people so convinced that Islam is evil and Christianity and Judaism are not.

Illustrating my point in detail is not what a strawman is. And sorry, but all three are exactly the same in respect to the criteria I have been using to form my argument, which is what I was illustrating.

I provided perfect equivalence, all three religions have had their hand in intollerence. I am attacking the foundations of these religions by showing that the unchallenged faith they require will lead to intollerance, murder, and genocide when their radical followers are faced with a desperate situation. I admit I referred to the past rather vaguely, so as proof I'll use the Crusades, and the genocides the Israelites wrote about in the Old Testament. I challenge you to show me how I am wrong.

I'll remind you that this discussion is my argument that all three religions are equally evil based upon the fact that they all have writings that call for murder and genocide of those who do not share the same faith. I said that because these writings are present there will always be a place for hate so long as the religions are present. Why did I say that? I said it because these religions act as a catalyst for murderous intentions as soon as someone chooses to use the religious text as justification for murdering another human. You say that the point is nothing but a strawman, instead of dismissing it with that why don't you show me why I'm wrong, if you truly believe that I'm wrong. It illustrates the point I am trying to make so I think that is a fair request for someone who is challenging my argument.

 

checksum, you write: "These apply to Judaism and Christianity" (regarding laws found in the OT).

This is a complete and utter misconception of the faith of Christianity.

The Apostle Paul, a jew himself, in fact a Pharisee, spent his entire missionary life explaining to the Jewish church fathers in Jerusalem, and to the jew and gentile alike outside of Jerusalem that Christians are no longer "under the Law (of Moses)."

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

As Christians the entire emphasis has changed because Christ has come, in fact, the law itself has changed (from the Law of Moses to the Law of Christ):

Hbr 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Which is the Law of Moses).

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The Law of the Old Testament does NOT apply to the Christian for we are not under the Law of Moses but under Grace. We are not under the Law of Moses but under the Law of Christ.

You know nothing of Christianity. I pray you open your heart, mind, and soul to the Truth before it is too late.

IN Christ, Lord and Saviour

 

Great points dead corn
To add on
The letters of the law kill, and since we under grace and not the law any longer, we're above the law of moses ...

 

Thanks for the reponse Dead Corn but what I am saying is that there are Christians that still use the old testament laws to justify their corrupt agendas. I know you probably think that these people don't represent Christianity, which is understandable, but at the same time there are Muslims that don't think Islamist radicals that use comparable texts represent Islam either, yet some Christian people still call Islam evil and claim that Christianity is not. I'm just trying to show the similarities between the two religions, because I don't believe they are very different at all, other then their stories.

 

I recommend to study both the quran and the new testament before making such statements.