Obama Effigy and Freedom of Speech/Expression

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by new, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. #1
    So it was big news yesterday that Obama Effigy had been found hanging at some place

    FBI is Investigating Obama Effigy Hanging and two suspects have been detained

    SO everyone what's wrong with having a effigy ?
    what is being investigated ?
    why they detained someone ?
    isn't there any 'freedom of speech/expression' ?
    why is everyone silent here at the forums ?
    why don't you condemn this attack on freedom of expression ?
    why not put on avatars supporting the effigy ?
    like you have put on in support of 'freedom of expression' of the cartoon guy ?
     
    new, Jan 4, 2010 IP
  2. Genuine Marketer

    Genuine Marketer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    6
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    130
    #2
    I am Canadian so this wouldn't regard me, so don't say everyone.
     
    Genuine Marketer, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  3. Roman

    Roman Buffalo Tamer™

    Messages:
    6,217
    Likes Received:
    592
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    310
    #3
    The Secret Service, which deals with threats to the President, has confirmed that it is investigating the incident.

    Obviously they need to know if this guy is a wack job and a real threat. I'd be suprised if he gets charged and he sure won't have a bounty on his head. Lucky for him he lives in the States, No?
     
    Roman, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  4. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    237
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    180
    #4
    This is New's indirect complaint about your avatar, Genuine Marketer. I guess he doesn't understand that that the secret service takes every threat to the President's life, joking or otherwise, seriously. Maybe he feel's your avatar is threatening Mohamads life? To be honest, I'm not sure what type of crack he is smoking now.
     
    Obamanation, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  5. new

    new Peon

    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    45
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #5
    this should concern you as much as the danish cartoonist concerned you

    Obviously is a nice word
    did you say that the danish cartoonist is a wacko job? may be he was planning to blow Muslims up? or wanted to push others to do the same by spreading hate ?


    How is an effigy a threat to life ? black magic may be?:rolleyes:
     
    new, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  6. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    237
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    180
    #6
    With your logic skills, this is going to be hard for you to grasp, but I'll put it to print anyway. Any perceived threat to someones life is taken seriously, especially when that someone is the president. If I were to send you notes with pictures of you with a drawn in knife through the heart, they would be taken seriously. No, I probably wouldn't be arrested on that alone, but if I were to keep sending you such notes, I would probably be charged with harassment and definitely be put under surveillance. I'm not sure simply drawing someone famous, or anyone for that matter, being killed in effigy without specifically making sure said person sees the art is a matter for concern because it is not targeted. When it comes to the president, all such matters, targeted or not, are taken seriously.

    So I ask you again. How could Mohammad's life be at risk? A better question still, what does the Mohammad art have to do with killing Mohammad? Answer: Nothing. The art implies Islam is a religion of terrorists, and interestingly, the Islamic terrorists are the ones that seem to respond most to it. Obviously you took no offense to the many pieces of art depicting Ariel Sharon as a blood crazed butcher. So what is different between those pieces of art and the one I use as my Avatar? Answer: Nothing.
     
    Obamanation, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  7. new

    new Peon

    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    45
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #7
    perceived threat ? may be it was a mockery of the president ?
    If Effigy is a threat than I can also argue that the cartoons were a threat to 1bn Muslims of the World as their purpose was the incite hate and arouse others to commit hate crimes against Muslims ?

    Can you for once? for once! leave aside, for a moment, the obvious prejudice that you have for Muslims? and think with an open heart ?

    may be you will realize the double-standards practiced by west, when it comes to aggravating Muslims they will start chanting "FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEdOM OF EXPRESSION"
    and when it comes to them, they can apprehend you on HANGING a Effigy and no one will raise their voice that FREEDOM has been violated

    I understand, hanging a effigy is bad, the hate is Crystal clear and so it was from the Cartoons
    Either you find both of them OK or Both of them BAD
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
    new, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  8. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

    Messages:
    5,458
    Likes Received:
    349
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    325
    Articles:
    14
    #8
    Apparently, they take no issue with these either...

    [​IMG] pmwAl-Hayat Al-Jadida September 12 2007

    [​IMG]pmwAl-Hayat Al-Jadida March 4 2008
     
    Rebecca, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  9. new

    new Peon

    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    45
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #9
    It is not me who cries over 'freedom of speech' it is you ?
    so why don't you raise the voice when you are not allowed to practice it in your own land ?
    what you say about the effigy ?

    Why don't you put an avatar of effigy to support freedom of speech ?
     
    new, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  10. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,438
    Likes Received:
    107
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    195
    #10
    When speech becomes the vehicle with which to commit a crime, or to PROMOTE a crime, or indicate the intention to commit a crime, the 1st amendment has no shelter. Never has, never will. That's why what you say can be used against you in court. That's why if you tell your neighbor, "I'm going to burn down your house this Friday", you are not protected by freedom of speech and you can be arrested and questioned - and if your threat is toothless, released.

    Freedom of speech, and freedom of expression, cannot be used to promote criminal activity. You can't set fire to your neighbor's house and call it "freedom of expression", because setting that fire is a crime.

    You can't threaten the President and call it "freedom of speech", because threatening the President is a crime. However, the threat must be real. That's why the moron that hung the effigy has been investigated, but he has NOT been arrested. Understand?

    I was raised to believe that racists are stupid. However, it's not against the law to be stupid. It's also not against the law to threaten the life of someone who's legally dead.

    Do you understand, new?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
    Corwin, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  11. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

    Messages:
    5,458
    Likes Received:
    349
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    325
    Articles:
    14
    #11
    Hanging an effigy is a mock murder. It's of a specific living person. They just want to investigate to ensure that someone doesn't intend to make their fantasy a reality.
     
    Rebecca, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  12. new

    new Peon

    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    45
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #12

    Dear ALL
    Happy hypocrisy
     
    new, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  13. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    237
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    180
    #13
    As I predicted, you were unable to get it. There are all kinds of images of Obama floating around, showing him as Hitler, as a Socialist, as the Joker(from batman), as a friend of deep pockets lobbyists. Almost all of those pictures are based on some perception of the man, correct, or incorrect. None of those artists are being arrested, or even investigated. These images are analogous to your Mohammad art, and even the most zealous Obama supporters are not threatening the artist's lives.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Save your hollow argument for the Mosque.
     
    Obamanation, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  14. new

    new Peon

    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    45
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #14

    great, so mockery is only acceptable to a certain level and it is you who decides that level!
     
    new, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  15. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,438
    Likes Received:
    107
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    195
    #15
    Pot. Kettle. Black.

    No, mockery is acceptable. Infringing on the freedoms of others is not. Do you understand the difference?
     
    Corwin, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  16. Firegirl

    Firegirl Peon

    Messages:
    1,257
    Likes Received:
    105
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #16
    Freedom of speech has two sides, the good and the bad. You have to accept both otherwise it wouldn't be freedom. Some things are highly offensive, but as long as someone's rights are not being infringed upon, we have to accept them to keep freedom of speech truly free....
     
    Firegirl, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  17. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    150
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    155
    #17
    new: Don't try and bs us that you care about 1bn Muslims.

    Muslims keep killing Muslims. I keep bringing up examples. Muslims are slaughtering innocent Muslim women and children.

    You have not expressed one tiny iota of concern about the slaughter of Muslims by Muslims. Time and again the issue has been brought up and time and again you avoid it.

    Its a good thing I'm here. I care about these innocent Muslims, slaughtered by the fundamentalist terrorists you support.

    Don't bother us with this gibberish about 1bn Muslims.

    You have continuously shown you don't care about the Muslims being slaughtered by Muslims. You only care about the terrorist killers.

    Meanwhile there are Muslims who care about Muslims being slaughtered by Muslims. Read this article that follows up on the terrorist attack of a volleyball Match in Pakistan right after the New Year that killed over 100 local Muslims: http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=216740

    An excerpt from the article reveals someone who cares about the 1bn Muslims...

    new: you only care about the Militants. Ahmad Ali and I care about the innocent children.

    Since you support the militants Ahmad Ali thinks you don't even deserve to be called a human.
     
    earlpearl, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  18. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,438
    Likes Received:
    107
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    195
    #18
    It's already January 5th and I nominate earlpearl's preceding post as Post of the Year!

    So, new, is it your position that ANY cartoon that has the potential to incite religious hatred should be illegal? Do you believe that the same protection should be extended to the Christian cross? And that the same protection should be extended to the Jewish Star of David?

    Speaking for myself as a Christian, I believe that hatred is not a part of my religion. There exist artists that place crucifixes in urine, and I believe that my religion shrugs it off. I don't hate the artist, I feel sorry for them. My faith is unaffected.

    new, do you believe that hatred is part of YOUR religion? I don't believe that all Muslims would agree with you. But I sincerely want to know, new, what YOU believe about how YOU practice YOUR religion and how hatred is part of it. Can you tell us, please?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
    Corwin, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  19. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    237
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    180
    #19
    It would seem that inability to distinguish peaceful protest/reform through non-violent means from bloodshed and violence is not uncommon in the Muslim world:
    http://article.wn.com/view/2009/12/07/Death_to_the_Dictator_shout_Iranian_protestors/
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091227/wl_nm/us_iran
    Its one of the many reasons I don't put too much stock in a new Iranian government being any better than the current one.
     
    Obamanation, Jan 5, 2010 IP
  20. ChaosTrivia

    ChaosTrivia Active Member

    Messages:
    2,093
    Likes Received:
    40
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    65
    #20
    I don't think so. The Iranis are fans of the west - they are hungry for a better life quality, more music, more technology, more internet, more gadgets. If a revolution will occur, there are good chances that the government will be democratic. It will be pro-western for sure.


    LOL Im laughing everytime I open a thread and I see everybody with the Mohammed danish caricature.
     
    ChaosTrivia, Jan 5, 2010 IP