Nah, that's what you want people to believe, Hamas was founded in 1987, years after any problems that already existed. Nice try Yea a nuclear armed Hamas with top military equipment, OH that's Israel - Hamas has fireworks - Get real!
Nice change of topic/avoidance of the problem. We all know the history. Hamas is in power now... today. That is the problem you need to deal with today. Could care less if they were armed with Toothpics. Their stated agenda remains the same. Why let them become more stable and gain power? If that were permitted, the world would one day be dealing with the same issues they have with Iran all over again.
Don't like facts? want everyone to believe this started yesterday? last week? last year? last decade? You have to look at an entire book before you know what it is about. Do you understand Palestinians getting food, fuel, medicine doesn't give Hamas power? Does Israel following law, respecting human rights ie not going around ethnically cleansing give Hamas power? In fact doing so gives Hamas power - That's why they were elected.
No, I'm just pointing out your deflection to change the topic. I'd say the denial of a right to exist to a group of people in word and action (Hamas) falls into ethnic cleansing. Are you claiming this is a pot calling the kettle black situation? Let me phrase it to you this way. If my neighboring government were to repeatedly attack me, and say I needed to be wiped off the face of the planet, I would have no problem supporting my own governments efforts to prevent that from happening up to some very extreme measures. I understand you place the name "Israel" into the slot of the neighboring government to which I am referring, but you really need to go back and study the history books you claim to know so much about.
It's not a topic change just because you want to start histroy of the conflict as 1987, that's not my problem. They would have to make them cease to exist first, there's no such thing as ethnic cleansing before it has happened, on the other hand Israel has ethnically cleansed Palestinians already, as you well know. As well as war crimes repeatedly. What's your solution to the conflict besides blaming Hamas? So it's you that supports Hamas? Since your here can you qualify the statement of which this thread is about?
I wasn't going to come back to this thread but you just make it too much fun. History you say. Perhaps you forget about the original settlers of that land, the Canaanites who were wiped out by the Hebrews? Or what about the Egyptian rule over that land which began somewhere around 1700 bc? What about the Ottoman rule which lasted around 600 years until the end of WW2 when the British then claimed that land? Still there is now Jewish or more to the point Zionist rule or claim over that land. More recently what about the Balfour declaration that was used by the British to deceive the French and the Arabs in the original 20th century attempt partitioning the land. Perhaps we should look at the original League of Nations charter which held that the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel should be an internationally legal process. But the focal point is on the Balfour declaration for which there is the popular politically correct version of events, and lesser known actual unfolding of events. Up to the point of US entry into WW1 Germany had not lost a battle, nor had lost any ground. In fact they were winning the war. In a deal between Lord Rothschild and Lord Balfour, Rothschild agreed that it would (through blackmail) convince the US to enter the war and in exchange Britain would provide Palestine as a staging point for a Jewish settlement. Lord Balfour then sent a letter, now public record, to Lord Rothschild thanking him for his efforts and promising the land. Land that was not exactly Britains to be giving away. Particularly not in this under handed manner. And from this I see a great similarity between the Zionists claiming that even though they hadn't occupied the land for more than 2000 years, a land they had conquered and wiped out the original inhabitants - the Canaanites - and the way that the Serbs held the same notion and also felt justified in murdering, raping, and ethnically cleansing the Bosnian and Croatian populations even though the Serbs had also not occupied that land for about 600 years, that they too only occupied after conquering the land and wiping out its inhabitants. All I can say to both groups is get over it. Your a religious sect, not a race of people. If that were the argument then the Jews should be fighting over Russia since the vast majority of Jews today are of Russian (Ashkenazi) decent. Far worse crimes have been committed against other races but you don't see them still arguing the same old tired arguments for thousands of years. Probably because your good friends the British wiped them out entirely. Yes history does repeat itself and only the ignorant attempt to justify it. As Winston Churchill poignantly stated, "He who forgets his history is destined to repeat it". If you need any references to what I have said in either this post or my last then wikipedia has pages and pages on the subject. You can also find a lot of information at the Cambridge online library or any prominent library for that matter. And in response to the personal attacks from my last post (which will no doubt be repeated here) yes I think you might be right, I could be insane. Unlike yourself though, I am not delusional. Visit a library and read something that is factual and unbiased. It might help you sort the shit from the clay.
incomesinternational.com, you ignored my reply to your first post, and I fully understand why and won't bother you about it. So, just in case you really missed it: http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=13007554&postcount=109 and now for this post, which you will probably ignore again: pfffff......Its nice to see though that your source of "history" is the jewish bible.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan have a read. Anyway, lets skip it and get closer to more modern times... thank you for not mentioning the cavemen in Africa.... The ottoman rule lasted exactly 400 years (with a short 10 year "break") Until the end of WW1 (and not WW2) when the British then occupied the land by brute force and not "claimed" it. But yeah, and what about it? What? The British did not "deceive the French" about anything. Although not yet conquered, Palestine+Lebanon+Syria+Jordan were already partitioned between the French and the British this was secretly agreed upon in 1916, before the Balfour declaration was published, and is also known as The Sykes Picot Agreement. The British did not "deceive the Arabs" as well, since the Balfour declaration was public and was brought to the attention of the Arab leaders in the middle east. so what about the Balfour declaration?....... Where is the league of nations right now as we speak? And where is the Jewish state right now as we speak? Are you sure that you want to base your arguments against the state of Israel on ridiculous international ghosts from the past which were a total FAIL? good luck. WHAT?! what "versions of events" and what do they have to do with the miserable tiny Balfour declaration? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917#Text_of_the_declaration man, give me that stuff that you smoke. I gotta try it. WHAT?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun A glorious French victory, two years before US entry to WWI. The battle has become a symbol for French determination and it commemorated annually in France. hmmm... I smell the weed now... god stuff.... This is the common Nazi & "white power" propaganda narrative as also appears in Hitler's "mein Kampf", claiming that the "Jewish Bankers" were behind US entry to WWI. I strongly recommend you refrain from reading Nazi stuff, my dear scholarly friend. Stick to the pot, it makes you sound much more amusing and cool to me. From "mein kampf" and "white power" websites, you mean.....: LOL Get over the cnaanites man. I didn't understand the crap you wrote about the Balkan war and how this is related with Palestine... but anyway... the jews "hadn't occupied the land for more than 2000 years" indeed, but they were present all the time. For example, when the Ottomans took over Palestine they were 12% of the population, which later increased to 18%. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/ZodiacMosaicTzippori.jpg This is a marvelous Mosaic from the jewish village of "Tzipory" ("Safouriyeh") dating from the 7th century (10 km from my home). It depicts the wheel of fortunes, where the fortunes are inscribed with their original jewish names, used until this very day. Every 7 year old kid in Israel can read the Hebrew that is written there, it is the same as today. Fascinating, no? Exactly at the time when this happened, a sad event happened in the other side of the "known world" of the times: Mohamed started his cult, and humanity will never look the same again. LOL, this just gets better and better. Ashkenazi jews originated from central Europe and spread all over Europe (mostly eastern Europe), and arrived to Russia much later. The vast majority of jews today are not of Russian decent. jeez. hey man, got some more weed? told you, bro, stop reading Nazi websites. And this would be a good point to conclude my post and thank you for a fascinating insight into your world of hallucinations, hatred, and ignorance. And don't forget: wear sunscreen and smoke pot!
Just go back to where chaostrivia says he is a zionist and an atheist and claims u can be both which is hillarious, since one of the core part of zionism is to teach your kids to believe in god. We allready discussed his hypocrisy many times. Like i said many times before I believe in god and while I dont agree with atheists at least they are as honest about their disbelief as I am about my belief in god. Chaos on the other hand cant fool atheists or us believers any longer. Hes definately not being deceptive is he. Like toopac said either more education or a lobotomy.
I don't see a conflict. Here are some others you might struggle with. Pro-Life Democrat Devout Christian Democrat Pro-Choice Republican Gay Republican Agnostic Theist They all exist. Get over it. I believe there are few who question Chaos is a proponent of the State of Israel. I don't know what his views on religion and/or god are, but being an Atheist in no way prohibits him from being a proponent of the State of Israel.
@chaostrivia, You are being ignored because that is all you deserve. Ok so you found a couple of typo's. I apologise ever so humbly. You accuse me of hate yet it's you who throws the insults. You ask for references yet you provide none. You claim to have all the knowledge yet you only argue on the points that you believe that you can counter and totally ignore the most important pieces of information most likely because you have no argument. And now you stoop so low as to call anyone who opposes the Zionist view of the world as a Nazi. You're assertions give the distinct impression that any website or source that is not pro zionist must be a white power or Nazi website. Firstly the Balfour Declaration went through several months worth of drafts and redrafts before it was finally submitted. Now I am not able to provide you with a source of the agreement with Rothschild to bring the US into the war because that would breach copyright law but I am sure with your intelligence that you could find it, but you don't want to see something that could prove your entire theory completely wrong but it was late in 1915. The US enters WW1 on April 16, 1917. Several months later, just enough time to edit the multitude of drafts the declaration is recieved. Notice the date? Yet it is not published until after the war ends because of the known effect that it would have had on the Arabs who were supporting the British. This is the deceit of the British to the Arabs plus several other agreements that the British made to both the Jews and the Arabs are well documented today where the British simply lied or reneged on their obligations under those agreements. With regards to your claims about the only reference of the Rothschild agenda being Mein Kampf please take some time to read this letter written by a Jew (not a Zionist) to the British establishment quite a few years before that book was ever written. This is the view of representative council Jews of the day. Not the views of the Zionist. It is very clear that Zionist do not hold the same values as the rest of the Jews. In fact in reality under the guide of the Tora it is God and God alone who will provide the homeland for the Jews. It is not the task of a morally void group of Jews, or any man for that matter, to take a land by by force. In your own religion only God has the right, the authority and the power to make such provisions. I don't remember seeing God show up to give his approval to the colonization of Palestine. Some further reading for you with very many citations to support both the facts and the conclusions in the text. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html And an excerpt from that page citing those in power and in positions of influence from the day: The last thing I will comment on is the way that the Zionist argument for the claim over Palestine is that it has a historical title to the land. If that's the case, then I'd rather keep the Canaanites in the discussion since they were the original land holders. Ignoring this fact is no different to ignoring the Aboriginal claim over Australia that the Australian government and the British government have recognized. In its simplest explanation, just because you conquer a land does not mean that you have any legal, moral, or historical claim to it. The only claim that the Jew have over Palestine is a 2000+ year old conquest that you could not maintain. Now I'm sure that you will have some ridiculous commentary as to why official documents are not valid or have no relevance and of course now that all of these men are long dead there is no one to argue with you. So don't be too discouraged when you get ignored once again. I remind you - you deserve to be ignored because you are clearly a bigot, and a supremacist, only your cause is to enforce the Zionist way of life. People like you are no different to any hate group. You cannot take an impartial view because you believe that you cult is superior not just to those other cults, but to all men.
so, in your last post, after you "ignored" me, you talked about the "typos", the Lord Montague letter, and you finish with your "further reading". (A) "typos" TYPOS? LOL. in two long posts, you didn't manage to get even a single historical fact right. So, probably WW1 --> WW2 was a typo, all the rest was shear ignorance. My favorite quotes of yours was the "British deceived the French" and "Germany didn't lose a single battle prior to US entry". oh! the stuff with the Canaanites was also very amusing. (B)Lord Montague Regarding the letter of Lord Montague that you didn't have to spam in, I have read it when you were still in your dipers. But what I fail to see is where are you trying to get at? Are you claiming that there are+were jews who oppose zionism? wha! magnificent news! damn we didn't know that. Actually, there are millions of them until this very day. In Israel they say: Two Jews, Three Opinions. Or are you claiming that he and his "representative council Jews" is right and zionism was wrong? Maybe. But yeah, after basing one argument already on the RIP "the league of nations", why not base another one on the RIP, negligible, irrelevant "representative council of Jews", a British jewish organization that is lost and erased from the pages of history...... For your information, Zionism is the main representative of the world jewry since 100 years, the "representative council of Jews" was like your "League of Nations", dead, unimportant, wrong and irrelevant. The jews have upgraded themselves from the punching bag and the scapegoat of the world to one mad sonawabitch nasty motherfuckers who kick ass. Deal with it --> history will not roll back and we will not become the miserable defenseless ones, like your beloved Lord Montague, that you miss so much. (C)"further reading" The "institute for historical review" ihr.org is not an "institute". It is an agenda anti-semitic/nazi site, not an academic one and not a "news source", run by Mark Weber, a holocaust denier and a racist who writes most of the "content" himself. I never heard of an "institute" that doesn't even have a wikipedia page. LOL. Are you sure that this is your preferred source of information, our dear "history teacher"? This is as for the source. Now as for the content of your "further reading" quote itself: funny that they call it "the basic protocol" LOL. I can't avoid the (coincidental? I don't think so...) resemblance with the "protocols of the elders of zion".... which were fabricated in Russia and now I understand where the bizarre sentence that "vast majority of Jews today are of Russian decent" came from.... LOL. Anyway, by the 'basic protocol' they actually mean what is called The Basel Program. Then, your quote goes on and brings are the four goals of Zionism as stated in the Basel Program. Next, in the similar tactics as with Lord Montague, they go on and speak about the British branch of the Hovevei Zion (a primarily zionist) organization who declined an invitation of the zionist congress. I never heard of it but lets assume that its true: I must say that the propaganda tactics are just brilliant. One sentence deals with the official founding congress of zionism, an important event in the life of a huge important and meaningful world movement (stamping in the head of the reader that "we are talking business now") and the next deals with the British branch of the Hovevei Zion organization, this might be 2 or 5 or 10 people - totally negligible, who criticized harshly the congress. Untrained brains of non-intellectuals such as yourself, not to speak the brains of those who are already jew-haters, will easily fall for the trick and will create the picture that "the jewish opposition to zionism was meaningful". But this was not the case. Zionism swept the jewish nation who recruited itself for the cause. Only the extremely ultra orthodox communities rejected it, and very very few secular ones, such as Lord Montague and those guys from the British branch of "hovevei zion". You need to base your argument something better than these guys: I know what these guys have to say even better than you do --> you bring nothing new. But the sentence you bolded is just the most hilarious: By quoting this, the author, A Nazi, is trying to teach the jews and the world about the "true judaism" - clearly his area of expertise (LOL), and claiming that the zionists are actually being "anti-jewish". LOL! Saddest thing is, that some jews agree with him and the bolded sentence, but the vast majority of them don't. The same majority which has brought the glorious state of Israel from vision to reality, with all its unmatched scientific, spiritual, technological achievements - the only oasis of advancement in a desert of backwardness called the middle east. ////////////////////// So to conclude your last post, B+C sum up as: in your attempt to argue from an historical point of view that zionism was wrong, your only argument which appears in two different versions is: "but even there were jews who rejected zionism". Wha. now I fall off my feet. You nailed me. ///////////////////// Side comment: And as for the "jewish-british world conspiracy" to get the US into WWI in exchange for Palestine - after the Germans "did not lose a single battle", you did not bring anything here to support it. Clearly, in your sources of "information" of the ihr.org-type, you will find it numerous times but you will not find any real proof that this is more than an evil nazi lie. The nazis adopted it since Hitler's mein Kampf, a book which I have read in its original language, where it is suggested but naturally - not proven, and stick with it still, 84 years after the book was written. Amazing. Today you find it only on nazi sites, and in brainwashed brains, such as yours. There is a Hebrew proverb: "No brain , No worries". So, as a nazi, how's life? ////////////////// I liked your previous posts much better though, when you teach us some funny pieces of "history" You seem to be brainwashed already beyond the point of no-return. And I thought u're just a nice guy who likes to smoke pot......... A friendly advice: ignore me, please, and don't embarrass yourself further.
I'm amazed at how you can write a load of twaddle but can't even quote the chapter and highlight it to qualify shooting unarmed kids, even after 7 pages
Opps he conveniently left that out again. After all its only a kid . Its interesting how choas just posts what favors his biased opinion and leaves out the full truth and then tops it all off with a nice ad hominem attack on anyone that disagrees with him. Yes and they really are building more settlements because hamas keeps attacking lol Yep that sounds like the posting of someone witha phd. A phd in BS that is
Zionists have no right on Palestine, be it lands occupied in 1948, or in 1967, it is true they had a dream of establishing a state, but did they really care where this state would be? the best ones who know that the Zionists are thieves, are the Zionists themselves, and this is when they suggested either "Argentina" or "Palestine" as the place for their "home", now what historical claims, or religious claims did they have over Argentina? it only shows that they wanted to steal, no matter from who, all that excuses, claims ..etc that came later, is only a propaganda, to hide the true ugly face of Zionism.
So as I said, anyone who opposes you is a Nazi, or a hater. And now you even include other Jews as being Nazi's? We have an Aussie saying get your head out of the sand before someone parks their bike in your ass crack. Though once again, in a feeble attempt to discredit anyone or anything that opposes Zionism you resort to name calling, and personal attacks. In psychology this behavior tends to lend itself to those who feel threatened and are insecure with their own position. Just an observation. I think it's interesting how in your attempts to discredit those in history, including the Jewish elders who were opposed to Zionism, you can't offer a single unbiased and totally impartial source for all of these statements that you make. You see the real problem is that you can't face up to the truth. You want to make your claim on Palestine based on a 2000-3000 year old history, though you want to ignore that same history of any other people - people such as the Canaanites, people such as the millions of Jews who opposed Zionism simply because they don't exist today, or even the League of Nations which created this whole mess but we should ignore that because they no longer exist - but far more importantly you choose to ignore your own scriptures. What I love the most about your comment is that you are calling Jews Nazi's. I mean seriously, you think I'm embarrassing myself? Take a look in the mirror - a jew and a nazi all in the same sentence. Solid gold comment that one. Intelligent conversation is engaged by men who can be open minded, listen to other points of view, discuss those, and find conclusions. You neither have the capacity to be open minded nor to listen to other points of view and therefore it is always going to be a foregone conclusion that even if God came down from heaven and laid it all out for you, you's still stand there and argue and tell her she's wrong. LMAO - a jew can be a nazi now - and 20 years before naziism even existed - that's hilarious!
No. You are, because nazi websites are your sources, and nazi narrative is your "history". Of course you are. 4 consecutive posts and you didn't get a damn single sentence right. Your intellect is weak and your brain is untrained. example: Only if you're stupid enough to understand this from what I've said. Certainly, nowhere did I say that. Noone who has more than 1 operational brain cell can read my post and conclude from it that I called jews Nazis, directly or indirectly. Great. The.... "elders" from the "protocols"? I backed everything I said with references that point to credible sources. You backed non of what you said with references - of course! it was all a big bunch of bullshit. Your knowledge of history is disgraceful for somebody who takes pride of being knowledgeable.... Only in your previous thread you included a first reference, pointing to a hate site. That happened, to my disappointment, just as I was started to like you: you seemed like a nice guy smoking weed and saying funny stuff about history. oh sorry, I mean "you had typos". said the one who couldn't get a single fact right. Not even a single damn 1 fact right. Actually, I don't think I ever managed to debunk everything someone says so swift and easy. You arguing against me on middle east history is like a 1st grader arguing against a professor of physics on quantum mechanics. As my replies to your 1st and 2nd posts illustrated beyond any reasonable doubt. How could I be so closed minded and not listen to other "points of view" such as "UK deceived France", "vast majority of jews today are of Russian decent", "Ottomans ruled Palestine for 600 years" and "Jewish bankers made US enter WWI", not backed by any evidence from a credible source? Hell. I need to get "open minded". If I get "open minded" enough, who knows what wonderful world of fairy tales awaits me. Must be fascinating. and then we could "discuss those and find conclusions". Allow me to LOLLLLLLLLLLLLL one last time laters dude. LOL!. ok, I must, please one more: beeeeeeeeeeeeep. who don't exist today? What are you talking about? What? you got another fact wrong? errrrrrrrrr hmmmm... that's a first!
And the highlighted sentence you refer to: And who made this statement, or rather protest? Executive Committee of the Association of Rabbis in Germany. Now maybe it's just because you're so much smarted than me but isn't a rabbi a Jew? Or is there a different kind of rabbi that I am not aware of, perhaps those god aweful nazi rabbis? Maybe that's who you're referring to. BTW, where are yoru references for all the claims you've made? Hmmm smells a lot like bullshit to me. Yet I still wonder, since, and I agree, the nazi's were a horrible group of people, hell bent on destroying one religion, no not a race - a religion, how can it be that Zionist feel so justified in commuting the same violent acts of forced expulsion and segregation of another people. Rather ironic wouldn't you agree. The big difference between you and me is that I consider everyone's point of view before I draw a conclusion. That includes the historical interpretations of all parties involved, not just those that I support. As you have just clearly demonstrated, you are content to label Jews as Nazi's because those Jews oppose your zionist views and organisation. Absolutely absurd. By the way there is a reason that wikipedia is banned from academic institutions as a source of information, because like you, it's shadowy information at best. However, since you like wikipedia so much, there are literally hundreds of pages that actually describe, document, and disclose all of the promises that the British made to all parties, French, Arab, and Jew. Look it up, you might just learn something that didn't come straight from the Zionist play book. There are also many pages on wikipedia that describe and document the ACTUAL series of event that have taken place over the last 3000 years as opposed to your own views. You may remember that in my first post I mentioned my jewish relatives. These people were the first people I ever heard talk about Zionism and these are the first people I ever heard discuss the hidden agendas and the intense opposition that they have for the Zionists. Are they Nazi's too? I just ask because as a kid I still remember them showing me their tatoos they were given in the camps. I also still remember listening to the stories that they told of their persecution and for one of my aunties, her horror stories of her 2 years in Auschwitz. I'm guessing you're the best person to ask about this because you are so clearly impartial and unbiased and seem to have all the facts particularly when you said that the Executive Committee of the Association of Rabbis in Germany were nazi's so I wonder if my relatives who spent time in concentration camps were also nazis. Listen knuckle head. Just because I don't agree with you, and just because Arabs don't agree with you, and just because many other Jews don't agree with you, and just because you think you can ignore certain factual documented events in history - doesn't automatically make you right and everyone else a nazi. All it makes you is ignorant. No better than the white power freak, the skinheads, or the suicide bombers. You want to learn about being impartial. Try this. A good friend of mine who was studying with me here in my country was talking to me one day about why he decided to become a muslim. The mans father gave him 3 books. The bible, the tora, and the qran. He was told to read them all. Once he did he made a decision to become a muslim. I won't go into his personal reasons why because that's not important. What is important is that he took an impartial view, his father took an impartial view and he was given a choice to follow any religion he chose. Did he preach hate towards jews or christians. Actually it was the complete opposite. If only you were half the man he is, you could say the same thing. And before you start up again - I am not a muslim, nor a jew, nor a christian, not an atheist. I don't support any one of your religions because as history has shown, almost all wars and conflicts have been the direct or indirect result of religious bickering and land grabbing. In this day and age, who in their right mind would support such a way of life? Only people with a lot of rage and a lot of hate brooding inside of them who require an external sense of justification for their hate and rage. Here's lookin at you kid!
incomesinternational, sounds like your friend has an awesome dad who just wanted his son to find his path in life and was very fair about it. Chaos only thinks his way is correct and will label any person a nazi who thinks other wise. The problem is even Chaos doesnt even know what he believes in. I hope he finds peace and love in his heart and has mercy on all people whether they agree with him or not.
You try so hard but you just can't help yourself can you? You have made an ass of yourself with this comment - and the sad part is that you know it.