Why should God let you into heaven when you die?

If we could get to heaven by doing "good" in our own eyes then why do so many not only feel guilty but know they are guilty - unless their conscience is numb by ignoring it?
Anyone who wants to know the truth - whatever they say or write - will find it. It is a perfect fit. We know when we have it because there will be peace in our heart. That's the same peace that is in heaven. Why not start enjoying it now and taking others with us? Sounds the better option to me than dragging others into death.

 

Don't quote me scripture, just have trhe decentcy to answer the question.

Do you not think that the idea that the punishment, in this case torture and execution, of someone else can relieve you of your wrongdoings is wholly immoral?

 

To your comment: Scripture is an answer - just not the one you expect, isn't it?

To your question: Are you saying that you rather take the punishment, torture and execution for your own wrongdoings despite someone offering to take them in your stead? If you were drowning, wouldn't you grab the ring they throw you and be saved? Would you rather drown?

 

Scripture is only an answe if you accept it's validity, which I Dont.

Your analogy is flawed. An apt comparison would be to drown someone else so you don't have to. Which would be immoral.

I would absolutely rather receive the pummishments for my wrongdoings than have the pummishments inflicted on someone else. Like I said, it's scapegoating.

You sound like the kind of creep who would sit back and watch someone take the blame for something you done.

It actually frightens me that you would see this as anything but a wholely immoral travesty.

 

It is your choice to what you do with an answer given - you have the freedom to reject it. The consequences are on you.

Have you noticed that noone can push you to answer their way unless he or she is a bully? Or insecure? Or hurt? Or ... been bullied or something?

If Jesus had been dragged by people to the cross to pay for their sins, it would make sense what you say, stOx. But they didn't drag Him there because they needed a scapegoat. They dragged Him there and crucified Him because He said He was one with God. They were MAD!

In the plan of God Jesus had to die because that was the only way we could become friends again with God. Our own efforts are never good enough - but Jesus' were ... even today.

stOx, have you ever seen when the light has come on in a person because Jesus, the Light, has moved in? They come alive! That's an AMAZING miracle!

 

You still aren't answering the question. It's a fairly simple one. Have another go.

Is it acceptable, let alone moral, to have someone else recieve a punnishment, in this case being tortured to death, for your wongdoings?

Also does it not make you think WHY this would be the only way for your god to forgive us? it seems like a particularly pointless and frankly vindictive thing to an omnipotent god to do.

Look what thinking about it does. it completely dismantles it and exposes it as primitive bloodthursty violence frorom a dirty little death cult.

Yes i have seen it and the light reminds me of the light you get from a jack-o-latern in that emitits from an empty head.

 

You should see the light that has come on in a person the first time they get laid.

 

It's not that Jesus was forced to take my punishment. He willingly took it and offered me then freedom.
Are you saying, Jesus should never have offered such a deal? But that is entirely up to Him, isn't it? We can not tell what someone can do or not do. We can only approve or disapprove it.
We also need to decide whether we take the offer seriously or not. It pays to think about what you miss when you don't take it and what you gain when you do.
I personally am very thankful for Jesus' offer. I cannot live with my sin and guilt and am glad that He takes if off me. That makes me grateful and keen to stay clean! How about you stOx?
I wish I could show you the light I am talking about - it is obviously VERY different!
(Sorry for getting back so late, but I had trouble entering the forum as so many others too I found out!)

 

I guess taking responsibility for yourself is just too difficult. By the way, any else troubled by the amount of self hatred in christianity? I don't know if it;s insilled by the religion of if the religion attracts people with low self esteem, but there is certainly a connection.

I don't want the "offer". I find the notion of someone else being tortured to death for my "sins" repulsive and had i been there i would have tried to stop it from happening. Especially considering i am now indebted to sum of eternal torture for the crime of not accepting a gift i didn't ask for, don't want and find immoral. (assuming any of this bollocks is true, which it obviously isn't)

I don't need your "light", i have a functioning brain.

 

I am so sorry that the Christians you know give you such a picture! - I just read about Lydia (Acts 16) yesterday, who was a successful business women. She became the first believer in Europe. Paul the apostle was a highly educated man. But then there are other Christians who were pretty smart, like the Wright brothers, Florence Nightingale, Samuel Morse, Johannes Keppler, Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, George Fridric Haendel, Mahalia Jackson, etc As you see I had no intention to insult your functioning brain. If I did, I am very sorry!

Just in case, Jesus is adamant "that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." Matthew 16:21-23 Why not take up the issue with Him?

 

sorry, what are you talking about now?

 

You do know our brains have evolved over the last 2,000 years, oops, sorry, forgot there is no evolution.

 

The good news is for everyone and making excuses because of those who don't honour it kept me in the darkness. I spent years there and it was not nice. I don't have many good memories from that time!

What do you think about taking up the issue with Jesus as He made the offer that you disgust so much?

 

I am responsible for my own actions and as a result I lead a very honest life and a very great life. I have never lived in your so called darkness but I pitty you for having to endure it. If a belief in some 2000 year old stories helps you cope then I do not wish to take that away from you, but you also need to understand that I do not need being saved, I do not need someones sacrifice to enrich my life, I do not need to bow to anyone or anything for my life is quite excellent and I will not sacrifice one second of it feeling I owe anyone anything.

If your god exists, I never wish to know him/her/it as he/she/it is full of hatred and vengence, and if the bible is true, unquestionably the greatest mass murderer in all history, definately not worthy of a second of my time.

The day you truly see the light is the day you realize how precious every moment of your life is and sacrificing the slightest moment of it to anyone or anything is quite the waste.

 

Who taught you?
I had people telling me all kinds about God and when I finally started to dig out facts myself I found they had lied to me! I think now that they probably did not know better and never looked for the Truth themselves.
What you tell me is what I had heard before! Not nice! I would keep away from such a god too! God on you!
Fortuntely though, God is VERY different!

 

Did he not wipe out the entire Earth's population except Noah and his family, not to mention all the animals except 2 of each and 4 of some. Then there's Sodom and Gomorrah, quite the massacre there too and for an encore he turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt just for looking back at the city. Very loving guy you got there.

 

Same here, I just have the guts to go one god further.

If you can understand why you reject all other gods you'll understand why we reject yours. So why do you reject the other gods?

 

I'd have to agree, Roman - timely enough, I just mentioned the story of Jericho, on another thread (every man, woman and child wiped out, save the "harlot" who sequestered the spies sent into the city, prior to its destruction); or, the story of Job - which sure seems to me, anyway, to be the destruction of a faithful man's life, out of a trifling bet between a bored Jehovah and a bored satan. Or, conversely, accepting predestination - why would God consign his children, born already condemned, to hell?

I don't enjoy trashing another's faith - if faith brings you peace, blessings and peace upon us all, my brother, my sister. But I cannot turn a blind eye to the concept of "love," and what I know of the God of the "Great 3" religions, by reference to the religious texts themselves. It doesn't match up, in my opinion.

 

Because...

1) I'm sexy.

2) I'm an Atheist and I like to break down boundaries.

3) And it would allow "God" to prove something for once.

 

Roman, did you ever read the account and find out WHY God wiped out everyone except Noah and his family? I find people's actions just do not make sense to me until I find out WHY they did it. Then I can often understand them. Works with God too!

I can understand why you reject my God, stOx, I was in the same boat for a long time too! I did not want anything to do with Him! Obviously that's changed now! I found I was scewed up, not Him!

Northpointaiki, where in the Bible do you read that God would destine people to go to hell? He NEVER EVER does that! On the contrary! He does EVERYTHING possible to get us to heaven - but people are stubborn and want to go their own way! We send ourselves to hell - God came to save us from that!
We people have also made up our own mind that God would let "good" people in, but God is at the door, not us. He sets the rules, not us, and He says: "If you belong to Me, My family, you get in!" That is very different and gives us all a chance - if we want it!