Joe Wilson calls President a Liar then his site crashes

Something interesting... if they don't want illegals accessing this proposed public option they should probably have a verification in place to make sure people are citizens right? Nothing is in the bill for that so the Republicans proposed this amendment:
http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Heller_Amdt_Text.pdf

Yet is was shot down, every Democrat voted against it while every Republican voted for it:
http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/tallysheet/heller7.htm

I tried to find any stories on the liberal side as to why it was shot down. All I found was it would make things "unworkable" according to the Democrat Rep. Xavier Becerra of California:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/27/health.care.immigrants/index.html?

Don't you guys agree citizenship should be not just required but actually verified if it's actually going to not cover illegals? Or we could easily run into the problem we already see with illegals... they're not supposed to be here, but in many instances involving the law nobody is allowed to verify a person's citizenship or kick them out.

Not that it really matters because immigration reform will make them all legal, but I thought that was very interesting and confusing that the amendment was shot down.

 

Hey, Reseg, let's try to start a moderate party.

 

I would PREFER that illegals have insurance, either through theie employers, or by purchasing it. Thay could even purchase it through the public option. That way, when they get sick, they won't end up in the ER with no insurance, clogging up the ER waiting room, and raising costs for the rest of us because they can't pay the bill.
What I don't want is illegals getting a subsidy to pay their insurance premiums.

 

How about if they come in for help, they get the help and then deported for being here illegally??

Why are people so scared to enforce basic laws?

 

I'm even more confused that no liberals are explaining why the Dems all voted against verifying citizenship when applying for this public option. If you're saying Obama isn't lying wouldn't this be an important feature of the bill so they don't get in as easy?

Also, nobody is touching the fact that Obama is working on immigration reform and is quoted as saying he wants everyone here on a path to citizenship, which means current illegals will be covered by this public option. Does that make what he said a "little white lie" or just a technicality that they will be covered but no longer illegal?

I HATE politics I just can't stay away from it lol.

 

Been there done that. Do you honestly believe it would make a difference? Its not like anyone that does not have a clue what's in it is actually going to read it. That much is fair apparent.

 

Well first I should say I agree with the premise of what everyone is saying here. If you are here illegally you're not only a leech on our system but you should have NO legal rights because you are here illegally!

I even think debunked is on to something. If we HAVE to treat them in emergencies due to human rights issues, we should at least be allowed to deport them once they are stabilized... Just my opinion.

To answer your question about the voting, well, I can't answer it because I don't support it. Frankly I think the Republicans should be fighting for that instead of giveaways to insurance companies and all the other nonsense they're spouting. Republicans are terrible leaders but great politicians. The problem is they always overplay their hand. This is a good solid issue they should be focusing on. Instead they are focusing on all the other nonsense like death panels.

The part that I bolded there is such an obviously unsubstantiated jump to conclusions it actually proves my point.

Let's break this down to 1st grade ---- If they are on the path to becoming legal then that makes them....? All together now..... not legal.

If they are not legal, then section 246 (you know... that image I keep posting in this thread that everyone is hilariously pretending they don't see) clearly states that they won't be covered.

So unless you've seen somewhere where it says people on the path to citizenship will be covered, I don't get why that is even relevant, much less proves Obama was lying?

 

Guys, keep in mind that the motivation behind giving illegals a path to legalization is votes. Pure and simple. Give them what they want and they will vote for you no matter what.

Democrats are the classic architects of manipulation and dependency. They get you hooked on them like heroin so you have no choice but to continue to vote for them.

Can't find American votes? Make illegals legal and give them whatever they want. Its about votes people, nothing else.

 

FACT
Obama said those here illegally will not be covered by the public health option he's introducing. Those identified as "illegal" which he says won't be covered are the exact same people he plans to give an opportunity to become legal through his immigration reform he wants to begin work on this year (2009). When legal, they will then be able to use his public option.
/FACT

I don't care if it takes them 10 minutes or 10 weeks for them to become legal... oh, and you think Republics are idiots, that great, none of that changes the above fact in any way and I just see it as argument filler.

Again, I never said I was against making illegals citizens, I have mixed feelings on it actually considering I don't think we have the balls to do what it takes to actually kick those out here illegally. My issue is Obama is saying himself he wants to make the illegals, legal. So saying illegals won't be covered by his public option sounds a little different than what his plans reflect. It's as silly as saying "I will never marry a woman named "Sally" while you're in love with and plan to marry your girlfriend named "Sally Smith". So she has her name changed to "Tammy" to get married. lol

Also, saying illegals won't be covered by the public option when there is nothing in it requiring verification of citizenship and the amendment to put it in there was shot down (by Obama's party) is very conflicting. You can make all the laws you want saying "Illegals will not get government sponsored healthcare" but if you tie everyone's hands from being able to enforce that, guess what will happen! After all, the laws also say they're not supposed to even be here, but THEY ARE!

With that said, the above are two perfectly valid reasons why one might consider Obama "lying". I think it's more of a play on words and confusion rather than a bold faced lie though.

 

Give them what they want, as opposed to...? Not giving them what they want?

The position you're taking on the whole path to citizenship thing is subjective. You say it's about votes. I'd say it's ideology. What about all the non-politicians who agree with it? Are they looking for votes too?

 

I mean you just keep making my point over and over again. What are we even discussing here?

Ok let's call it argument filler. So how about this, you show me where Obama plans to officially cover illegals before they become legal (even though that goes against everything you just said), and I'll say "Yup, Obama lied.".

I feel the exact same way. Either we're going to allow people to immigrate to the U.S. or we're not. And if we are, then the people that do immigrate here need to do it legally just like everyone else.

Ironically the part you tried to make a joke with at the end is what makes your analogy relevant Otherwise it wouldn't fit.

Excuse me for making assumptions but this is the part I think you're not getting -- Once they become legal American citizens... they are legal American citizens..... It's as if in your mind you're trying to make them still be illegals even after they are just as much a citizen as you are.

Or in your terms, Sally isn't Sally anymore. She's legally changed her name to Tammy. Yup, she's the exact same person but Tammy now has a social security number and pays taxes just like you do.

You're getting your talking points mixed up -- The whole "requiring verification" argument comes from the fact that even today emergency care facilities can't force anyone to provide proof of citizenship for care. Because there are laws against it.

Now read this part carefully: That has absolutely nothing to do with health care coverage. Illegals can't come to the government and say "cover me and don't ask me for my proof of citizenship" because of 2, count em 2 fail safes:

1) There is no law saying the government can't ask for proof of citizenship to be covered under the public option. This is not an emergency, it's health insurance coverage.

Get the difference now??

2) Section 246 clearly and explicitly forbids the government from covering these people even if there were such a law. If they can't prove they are here legally they don't get covered.

Now if you can make an argument that shows how they get around all that then show how President Obama knew it and thought it would be a good idea to go before congress and the American people purposefully lie about it, well you may be on to something.

 

As opposed to working for and earning it, like everyone else.

No, its about votes, and power on the part of one party. PERIOD...

 

Not everyone is in a position to "work for it and earn it". I know that doesn't fit into your utopian view of a purely capitalistic society, but the facts will do that. In your world, we're not a nation but just haves and have-nots. If you fall by the way-side you should literally just die off. Let the haves survive. You're only here to buy our products anyway.... I guess the only question to ask in reply to that is, what's the point of having a nation anyway?

If we're not in this together, what's the point? Just to keep all your sheep/customers from going to another country?

Ok well, since you put a BIG period at the end....

I noticed you didn't answer the question as usual, again.

 

Our government is NOT a charity and has NEVER proven itself capable of distinguishing between your "have-nots" and deadbeats/crackheads working the system. Just take a look at all the studies done on fraud our government's been victim to. We have actual charities for this... the more local and detached from the government, the better as they're part of the community and not seeing people as a file # they fire off a check to.

 

Actually I did. And yes, its about votes. Ultimately power and control. That's it, that's all.

Any yes, everyone is in a position of opportunity to pursue their own happiness. Working and Earning are not utopian ideas. These are ideals shared by capitalists, opportunists not socialists.

 

Guys it's really very simple. If what your are skirting around but not quite stating is that since the government can't discern between people who actually need help and people who are just pieces of shit we need to just let them all die, then please.... just say that.

See I think that's what you believe, and frankly I'm trying to help you make your point already.

So go on and say it. No one's gonna bite ya

Ok just so we're clear,

I said: "What about all the non-politicians who agree with it? Are they looking for votes too?"

And you said: "And yes, its about votes."

Is that correct? Because the way I read that it basically amounts to:

Me: Your argument doesn't make any sense. Here's why...

You: You're damn right it doesn't make any sense and I stand behind it! If I keep repeating it without any logical argument behind it I'll eventually be right.

I said "utopian" because in utopia, where you live, there are no unforseen circumstances. In Utopia, you work hard, and get everything you need in life. No one gets hurt, sick, fired from their job, screwed by conmen, fleeced by insurance companies, etc etc etc. That's not how the world works.

Sorry if I got a bit condescending there. But I know you know that's what I meant and you chose to try to twist it into absurdity so I had to break it down to 3rd grade for you.

 

Yes, its about votes. PERIOD.

Those following are hooked on Kool-Aid.

 

More PERIODs please.

And you need to add more soaring patriotic rhetoric after your mis-information. That's how the pro conservatives do it.

 

Seems to me you've been drinking too much of the kool-aid. PERIOD!

 

Exactly. I don't get why people let their anger at people different from them cloud their judgment so much. The way the system "works" (or more accurately doesn't work) now is that everyone without health insurance ends up getting extremely expensive care at the ER and that cost gets passed on to everyone else. Rather than rectify this problem with a sensible solution, those on the right are just shouting about how much they don't like immigrants. It's just sad that we can't have a rational reasonable debate about things like this in this country because of the lunacy of the Republican party.