What do you think about the relegion Islam(specialy non-muslims)

I think it's clear by now that polite teen, and most muslims on the forum, completely condone paedophilia and a mans right to rape a child or have his child raped (so long as the man happens to be muslim of course).

Look what your religion has done to you.

 

Again, you cannot take the opinions of a few people and apply it over the whole religion. For every 1 you find that condones this action I have seen thousands upon thousands that condem it. I have many muslim friends as well as jewish, hindu, atheists and others, and every muslim friend I have talked to would condemn this action, but then again your programmed in some kind of format to follow the actions of your master hitchens. Parakeets can speak but do they actually understand what they are saying or being told what to say?

 

Ping, my issue here is that I am simply waiting for someone to come on board, to condemn this. I want someone to come forward, to show this isn't how most Muslims think. I do believe most Muslims, like most people, are simply good people, trying to live their live like the rest of us. But I am deeply sad to say I have yet to see any Muslim member come forward, to simply say, yes, it's wrong.

It's wrong this little girl was married off to an adult pedophile. It's wrong this is justified as an expression of Islam. Possibly, truth be told, it was wrong the Prophet himself did such a thing, and as difficult as this, it might perhaps mean the religion - like all religions - has some serious flaws, to be admitted and dealt with.

I do not enjoy this. My goal has zero to do with hurting any Muslim on board, nor to destroy the very thing that gives them meaning, if such it does; my goal must be to speak of the truth, and to speak out against a horrible, horrible crime against innocents - from whatever era.

I will say, I thank Gauhar for coming forward to my PM request, but Gauhar, if you're watching, I do not understand, given your feelings, why you remain reluctant to speak out on this - if even it calls into question the life of the Prophet himself. I know such a thing is terribly difficult to admit to oneself - a lifelong belief, that may need to be amended or cast aside, in light of a truthful, heartfelt inquiry. But as before, with yourself, I gained from an open dialogue and would invite the same now. You can trust this isn't from a place of bigotry or hatred; quite the opposite.

To all others, beyond anything else, I cannot accept your reluctance to deal with this squarely. You say you seek truth, peace, acceptance. None of this can come from any of us withdrawing from speaking honestly, squarely, openly with each other.

I'll say it: What we've had, of those who have contributed, is a vile set of statements, or obfuscations, avoidances and vagaries to what is patently obvious, an extremely simple, very clear set of questions to answer.

For record's sake, I'll post a few of my questions again:

I call on a truthful and open discussion of the above.

Postscript: Lest anyone want to play word games with a "willing" 9 year old entering into marriage...it's as recent as today's news. The piece of dogshit that is at the center of this kidnapping story kidnapped, and gained the trust of this child, because it's what monstrous animals - and here, I'd include pedophiles - do. This child felt the guilt, of having bonded with her captor.

Forgetting the inherently obvious, that a child is a damn child, not ready for a sexual life, it is inherent to life that a 9-year old kid hasn't even formed a full identity, such that she cannot enter into much of anything as a fully informed, conscious, willing and equal partner, much less marriage to an authority figure, an adult pedophile. So let's let that one go, shall we?

 

Don't expect everyone to come out and condemn it...it's fairly ovbious it's a hurrendous thing without saying, i do condemn it, any rational human being should...well i assume so anyway.

 

Thanks, Thraxed, for saying so. I agree, it should be obvious - all the more reason I'm saddened by the relative lack of comment, or, to some of the comments made, justifying it.

I appreciate you coming forward.

 

Again, I'm not. read what i say carefully, the words have meanings for a reason, it doesn't require your personal interpretation.

Does it not concern you that not a single muslim on this forum (edit: apart from thraxed) has been able to come out and flatly condemn something as abhorrent as child rape, or are you more concerned with distancing yourself from the actions of other theists who commit and justify abhorrent acts with their particular brand of theism? Does it not concern you that, on this forum at least, the automatic response from most who would consider themselves "moderate muslims" is to downplay and justify something as repulsive as child rape?

Children are being raped pong, it's hardly the time for excuses or playing the victim. "boo hoo, poor theists, atheists keep generalising".

 

That's the problem with Islam - that everywhere when Muslims live - the sane majority is silent and terrified/terrorized by the insane minority.

They never speak up being afraid to be accused of "questioning the quran" or being sick, sinful, "evildoing" - disbelievers.

In the jewish and Christian worlds, when a lunatic says something out-of-place, he is immediately put in place, or in prison. thats the point.

 

Of course that is your right. You can do what you wish in what you own. I cannot and I have no right to interfere in your own business.

This is because you don't own the sidewalk nor the wheather.

That is what you are supposed to do, and that is how your child should be.

When he reach 9, he is supposed to be able to decide for himself, but he would still need some help to decide for the big matters.

Actually, all human being need help, but the amount of help they need differ due to many factors.

Thank you for these answers.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now it is obvious that we don't own something completely.
We own part of something, and we can only control the amount that we own.

There is no one owns everything completely but The Creator Glory be to Him.
We are limited. He is The Absolute, The Exalted.

He created us, and He created our feelings and qualities (the spiritual and physical), and He created us in pairs, and the whole existance is just under His commandments.

If He forbid something, no one has the right to allow it. And If He allow something, no one has the right to forbid it.

He cannot be questioned as to that which He doeth, but they will be questioned. (23)

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr[Money of marriage] you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allâh brings through it a great deal of good. (19)

But if you intend to replace a wife by another and you have given one of them a Qintar (of gold i.e. a great amount as Mahr), take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin? (20)


In case you don't believe in the Quran (the truth), then you have to bring forth your reference on which you base your judgment for what is right and what is wrong.
Do you base you judgment on:
1. Culture.
2. Your Opinion.
3. others.

Note: the above words that come after the line is not for you BT only, it is general for all.

 

What does any of that have to do with Muslim men taking children as wives and having sex with them? Why do Muslims condone this behavior as being sanctioned by Allah.


If you think if it is "good" that a 9 year-old girl is married and has sex then you think Allah is fine with it.

If you think if it is "bad" then you think Allah is not fine with it.

What you seem to ignore is that it is ALWAYS bad to marry and have sex with a 9 year old child. There is NO example where that behavior is acceptable. So while you play these semantic games the reality is plain for everyone to see - namely, that you look for any excuse NOT to condemn child rape for fear of offending the Quran or Allah. You try to leave yourself an out, but you have tied yourself in a moral knot that is sad to watch you struggle with.

 

Condemning pedophiles is not "questioning the quran", you're just being an idiot again...as usual.

 

There is difference between what is must and what is lawful.

Some people (such as BT) seems to know not that fact.

 

Polite, if you believe that any of this impresses, I take no joy in saying that the glaze of enlightened mysticism you seem to want to convey amounts to nothing, in my opinion.

I cannot understand why it it seems impossible to muster an answer to the following:

-is it right, or to be condemned, for a child to be married to an adult male?

-Is it Islamic, or Un-islamic, for such a marriage to take place?

-Relatedly: The cleric who declared such a marriage as we see before us in this portion of the thread:

- declared such a marriage as entirely within the manner prescribed by Allah;

-declared there isn't a sharia issue with child marriage, that there is no problem with such a marriage;

-declared those who would "stir the pot" - presumably, that would include this girl, who was not only made to marry, but was raped, repeatedly - are "really trying to make trouble, where none exists."

This cleric - is he to be condemned, as an abomination before humanity, or to be praised, as representative of Islam?

This really is a very, very basic thing, as a good many have said. The tortured obfuscations, or the outright refusal to enter in and discuss this openly, is galling; but more, it is tragic.

 

It is fine, to be accurate.

Marriage in Islam needs some conditions.
If one of these conditions is violated, then it is not Islamic.

There is no mention for the age in the Islamic conditions of marriage.

Regarding this story, it is violating the rule of satisfaction of both sides which cause it to be un-Islamic.

Also,

So, the husband is the one who is to be condemned not Islam.

It is Un-Islamic marriage.

I told that I think he was talking in general, not commiting on this story since it is clear from the verses of the Quran that this marriage is Un-Islamic.

I think he was defending the Islamic rule (freedom of marriage), not defending the person who was violated the Islamic rules in his marriage.

That is wrong, I am against it.

I think there should be some people who search for the innocents such as sister Nujood, and others who are abused by some ignorant in the name of Islam wrongfully while Islam came to enhace their life not destroy it.

Take this example:
If the police found some pharmacies selling drugs, then the government were discussing the so called solution of closing all pharmacies in the country, but some one was saying:
Why do some people want to make a problem of something not a problem in itself?
Shall I understand him as a drug seller?

Finally, I think you need to bring forth your reference on which you base your judgment on what is right and what is wrong. Is it:

1. Culture
2. Opinion
3. other

What is your reference as a person who believe not in the Truth that this Quran is revealed by The Creator, Glory be to Him, who owns this existance?

 

Polite, this is replete with flaws. You are reaching for whatever you can to justify this crime, and others like it, because you start from a premise of a flawless ethos, that cannot be marred by imperfection, and you work backwards to the real world. It's called a tautology - "anything that challenges the "perfect" must be flawed - because the "perfect" is "perfect." And it is irrational.

It also results in horrible crimes against your sister, my sister, young girls.

To answer your last question:

As disgusted as I am to have to answer this, it is based on something very basic, human reason.

Firstly, a child is not a mature, sexual being. To have that child enter into sexual practice with an adult is pedophilia, which is viewed across the globe today - from "primitive" tribes to "advanced" societies - as a serious offense against nature itself.

Secondly, a principle of at least any civilization I'd want to be part of, is that for two individuals to enter into something as profound as marriage, they need to be fully informed, fully able to make rational decisions that affect their lives. A child of 9 is not, contrary to your assertions:

Able to "decide for him or herself." And from what I see, if the "help" to "decide the big matters" is to marry a pedophile, as it seems you're justifying, it is crime, and not parental love and guidance. I am utterly disgusted by your assertions here.

In addition, as I am sad to say, I now expect, you are ignoring the one example - precisely an illustration - of the dynamics set up when a child is taken at the hands of a pedophilic monster. They tend to bond with that monster, because the monster has all the control - he molds the child to be dependent on his will, for life itself. This is your "willing" and your "enhance the life of both pairs." NO. It is as vile a crime as can be committed upon a child, and most human beings condemn this with every fibre of their being.


Finally, the pig of a "cleric" justifying this crime was asked specifically about this crime, and justified it by the bullshit I earlier indicated. It appears to me you are tap dancing any way you can to excuse the words of an asshole, simply because he's a cleric. I again find that repugnant.

Your attempt at logic:

Falls ridiculously, in my opinion. That you would attempt to justify this by glazing over the kindred criminality between an illegal operation of one kind, and crime upon a child, is telling, as usual, and as usual, I find myself disgusted, and saddened - if this is the face of how most Muslims think.

I have said this many times. I do not care what faith one practices, so long as that faith doesn't engender harm to any living thing, here and now. I come to Muslims without rancor - post 9-11, I know the cost of bigotry, acutely; I recall what my country once did to its Japanese-American citizens, during WWII. I have known those citizens personally. I do believe in my heart of hearts that most people want to live, and let live.

That said, I am left, in this thread, with a deep sense of sadness, and anger, that there has been a dearth of Muslim voices condemning this practice. I do thank Thraxed for coming forward, and Gauhar, for contributing his thoughts privately (though Gauhar, I remain puzzled by some of our discussion, as discussed privately).

I condemn any justification for pedophilia, certainly rape, on any grounds whatsoever, and I remain disgusted with what I see here.

 

I didn't justify this marriage since the begining.

I was justifying the Islamic rule:

All the races have their right and wrong and nutral acts, I believe.

The Perfection is God's only, and He is The Source of Goodness.

Early marriage was very common in the whole nations on Earth.

Do you think they had no human reason?

What is the human reason and who are the human being?

We differ on the definition of child.

I don't call adult as child, it is against nature.

I hated to be dealt with as a child when I was 7, and I was offended so much when I was 10 (adult), I considered that to be insult.

I deal with people as I like them to deal with me.

I strongly condemn sex with children.

It depend on the mind of the person.

You should not insult intelligence of human being just because of your people.

Sorry NPT, I don't mean to hart you, but I had to say it.


See: 17 years old child

age of consent

You bend my justification to fit your example,

The rule is clear:
if it enhance the life, OK.
If it doesn't, it is forbidden.

For each situation there is a particular judgment.

I am not here to encourage early marriage unless it is instructive, which is rarely happens, but I am here to say that it is lawful.

I prefer my wife to be of the same age as me, and I encourage this kind of marriage unless it is destructive. It depends on the situation.

In that case, I am sorry, I am against him.

I thought him speaking in general not on this story and I gave you the example of pharmacies to clarify how I thought about him.

 

I don't know what else to say, Polite. I've "bent," nothing, and only stated the facts as we have them before us. Your response is, in essence, to appeal to cultural relativism. You link to a site that discusses "age of consent," which is an abstract of the subject, citing, in part, historical conceptions of the idea (dropping the age down to 7 under certain "contexts").

Let me just cut to the chase. You say, a 9-year old is fully able to enter into a sexual relationship with an adult, because in fact we're not talking about a "child" - as evidenced, in part, by your resentment at being told what to do when you were 7. Cutting through the vagaries, you would have us believe a person of 7-9 is, in fact, a "consenting adult."

I have provided some very fundamental reasons why I vigorously disagree - among them, a patently biological issue, which is that a "person" of that age is nowhere near sexually mature.

This whole thing is enshrouded in a tautology, in my opinion; I reiterate: rather than question the practice, you begin from the notion that the practice is perfect, and look for means to justify the practice...because it is perfect.

Perhaps you would tell us how you would find a person of 7-9 to be an "adult," capable of a mature, sexual relationship. Speaking? Would that be your criterion? Why stop there? How about a 5 year old? Three? No? What the ^%$%# is your criterion that would say, in any way, shape or form, a sexual relationship between a "person" of 7 and what most of the planet conceives as an adult is, in any way possible, a "mutually beneficial relationship, between 2 consenting adults"?

There is nothing about "culturally relative values here." Call me inflexible on this issue, but I call it animal behavior, and there is a tragedy of epic proportions being foisted upon innocents, as we speak.

Respectfully, to all Muslims on the board:

Why do you remain silent?

I seek engagement on this - not a pre-formed opinion, that festers into bigotry. Your lack of participation is troubling, to me.

 

@north
i have not read this thread except for the last few posts, but i believe this is what polite is trying to say.
in islam there are no age criteria for marriage but there are different criteria.
if applied those criteria would also prohibit pedophiles.
he does not see a need to have an age limit for marriage in islam, because there are rules that go even further and prohibit for a wider range of situations that would make pedophile marriage unlawful automatically.
or he is fkd up

 

Pizza, you needn't look far.

Polite maintains it isn't pedophilia to have sex with a 7-9 year old.

Why?

Because a 7 year old is an "adult."

Hard as it is for me not to use stronger language, this seems to be his latest justification. I maintain, it is a tautology: Because it is impossible that Islam has any flaws, anything which calls into question anything regarding Islam must be flawed.

 

then it must be the second choice.
even according to his own rule i ask him to demonstrate how a 7 year or a 9 year old can marry in this day and age and does not get harmed

 

Unfortunately throughout most of the Islamic world, specifically in the nations that are majority or significantly Islamic, there are no powerful constraints against Islamic violence. It doesn't matter if its against other members of Islam or against those who aren't Islamic.

Yes, there are nations like Turkey, that constrain that violence with both a government and a large part of the population that has a strong secular bent.

The fundamentalists are heavily weaponed, reasonably supported, and can and do strike repeatedly.

Internally I suppose in many cases members of Islam that oppose the radicalism and terror of fundamentalists are quieted and keep mum. If they speak out, they could die.

The fundamentalists are brutal. While the non-Islamic world needs to not only protect itself from these terrorists, it should similarly strike out at them.

Ultimately, moderates within the Islamic world need to suppress their own terrorists. They need to do it to protect their own people, the majority that don't believe in waging war against everyone else every day, and to join the society of nations.

Until that time comes, when those within Islam wage war and suppress their most fundamentalist and terrorist aspects, they will struggle to live with the rest of the world.