An alternative to Obamacare, starting with advice from Whole Foods

NOBODY DIES in the US do to lack of insurance, hospitals can not refuse treatment and we have free clinics that may suck and you have to wait hours tops, but they're there. Choosing death over debt, or "bankruptcy" is a choice, not a forced path.

Yes pre-existing conditions suck, nobody is denying it and everyone wants a way to fix this problem WITHOUT our whole country going bankrupt and our great doctors saying "screw this, I'm outa here".

Sorry you don't like my sources, they're better then your ZERO sources

If I find more time in the day I will use it to find sources you prefer.

I appreciate your input, but people need to see both sides of things. There is no perfect answer yet with healthcare, every country in the world is seeing problems in this area. So let's find and back the right options to fix our problems and make ours better rather than jumping on bandwagons.

 

"Frivolous" lawsuits are tossed out by judges right at the outset all the time. If they aren't, then they aren't blatantly frivolous. See, we have a legal method in our society of dealing with that.

 

Yes, they do die. Because they know they don't have insurance, so they avoid Dr. visits and postpone ER visits until it's too late.
Here's a pic of my daughter, now dead, because she didn't have insurance, avoided Dr visits & postponed calling for an ambulance until it was too late. She's not the only one you know, thousands die that way every year. Can I prove it? No. can you disprove it? No.
My daughter
SHE'S DEAD NOW

 

Huh? not having health insurance kills people? Please, get your mind out of the gutter.

If someone CHOOSES to not go to the Dr because they don't have health insurance, they don't like doctors, they have no money, they can't read, they have a phobia of leaving their home... it's still a CHOICE no matter how badly you want to pretend it's not. Not having insurance does NOT remove your option of being treated, it only makes it more annoying.

While we need to fix things with healthcare to make it more affordable/available and easier to use, and better coverage... we also need to take personal responsibility and stop assuming people who don't know us are going to hold our hands through all our needs.

 

Yes, this could happen to someone you love too. I hope it doesn't. My mind is in grief, not the gutter. No phobia, liked dr's ok, learned to read before kindergarten...
Not having insurance makes it more difficult to get treatment, extremely more difficult, not just annoying.
How about you stop making shit up, ok?

 

Please point out one single thing I've made up. You come here and try to argue that someone can die by a disease called "no insurance coverage" is silly.

I simply gave a list of reasons people might not want to go to the doctor, but want it to be clear it's still their choice.

OK, so in your opinion and experience you would say "extremely more difficult" as well as annoying to go see a Dr without health insurance. I can respect that. Now, how many people died waiting in lines for government care in countries with socialized medicine? People who thought it wasn't an emergency while waiting months to see a specialist only to find out it's too late? Is that a better scenario? What about the ones who didn't bother getting an appointment cause the wait is so long because of rationing? What makes you think we wouldn't end up like that here? I'm not saying we will, but it can't be ignored because it IS happening in the UK and Canada for non-emergencies. That's why I was enjoying this thread seeing opinions from rational people and their theories on what we need to fix things.

 

You made up that;
1. my mind is in the gutter, I mean, what the hell, do you not comprehend grief???
2. that she didn't like Dr's
3. that she couldn't read (WTF?)
4. that she had a phobia
5. that it was a simple annoyance

Let's hope that ALL the people in your life NEVER are without insurance, and that they NEVER make an error in judgment that costs their life.

My "argument" is not an argument, it's a statement of fact. People without insurance tend to avoid and delay treatment. You can pretend that's not true, but it is.

Of course it's a person's choice to seek treatment, and I wish that she had asked for an ambulance sooner. But she was inhibited by that pesky problem of no insurance.

Now you want to pretend you were just listing possible reasons any person might not seek out treatment when they should. But you were clearly responding to my tragedy, my daughter, and naturally I feel insulted. Now you want to say, "Who me? Why I meant no insult! " when it's clear you did mean to insult me in my grief and my daughters memory.

Go ahead, be insulting, that just confirms the people who are against reform just don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. And your insults are nothing compared to the pain I already feel.

As far as rationing goes, we already have that here, except it's done by the insurance companies. The stuff you report about health care in other countries is exaggerated, I go visit friends in Canada regularly, they report no such thing to me.

 

You need to re-read my posts because you took them completely wrong. Your 2-5 list there were "general" reasons why I can understand people might not want to go to the Dr and had NOTHING to do with your daughter. Yes I feel your mind is truly in the gutter, not that you're an idiot, just refusing to see the whole picture.

I realize you may think I'm a tard, but to try and say your daughter couldn't read when I know nothing about her... and I used the term "someone" to set up the examples I was about to list... is really reading into it.

I'm sorry you misunderstood me.

As far as rationing and statistics goes, feel free to read the whole thread (without reading into it as all my posts are talking about your daughter when in fact I referenced her in NO way). You will see the # waiting for treatment which you can reference with your own statistics and sources. I wouldn't go off just a few friends to argue as Canada is pretty large.

As for my rough times and deaths I've experienced, I'm not going to turn this into a "I've had more troubles in life than you with loved ones dying" thread, it's a card I refuse to play in an attempt at a rational discussion.

There you go, now you're on track "People without insurance tend to avoid and delay treatment". YES, now go back through the thread and notice how we've been talking about making insurance cheaper and more available so this doesn't happen. Not having insurance isn't a death sentence for people, it makes them reluctant to CHOOSE to go to the Doctor!!! One of the things we need to fix!!!

Where have I ever said I was against reform? Are you reading into things again? In fact, if you look at my posts you will see I've said I'm for reform, but this bill, as it's written makes me think there's a better way. A way that costs less, gives more options, keeps us from depending on the government even more, allows home births with midwives still... it's the whole point of my thread, to put out other options to fix our problems.

 

You perhaps give away something of yourself in this statement.

There is a large segment of our society that faces difficult survival choices every day. Homelessness, for instance, is not always a choice, but an unavoidable reality.

Given the "choice" of food for the child or a visit to the dentist for an impacted wisdom tooth could very well be a life or death decision.

The system is broken. There is a sense of entitlement that justifies the shift of common wealth to private wealth without regard to its consequences, a loss of compassion and sense of community (pre-requisites for any stable society), and the establishment of a culture of self interest and greed.

For many (perhaps most) the "American Dream" is an unattainable myth - one that is dangled out there as a justification for the broken system by those that are the greatest beneficiaries of that system.

 

There is one that you made up. Desire, in any number of cases, has nothing to do with it.

Had you stated that there were reasons a person might be unable to go to a doctor you would be more on point.

Hospitals (and doctors) can and do refuse treatment, and even when treatment is provided there are bills that come due. I am aware of one person whose cnacer treatments were stopped mid-course due to their inability to pay the bills.

No choice. No recovery. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

They died from a very treatable malady.

 

Is it possible to actually debate the issues without insults? Apparently not. <SIGH>
I see the whole picture clearly, people like you don't give a crap about anyone but yourself. I don't need to reread your posts, and fyi, I did read the entire thread. Don't claim it was me who took it wrong or misunderstood. You knew you were posting in response to me, you knew I would feel pain reading your post, but your agenda wouldn't let you see the whole picture. Now you want to say I misunderstood. No I didn't, you said what you wanted to say, and I got your message loud and clear.

I will repeat my point here, just to prevent it from being lost in the shouting.

People DO die from lack of insurannce.

 

No

They die with insurance too!

 

Quote:

People DO die from lack of insurannce.

They die with insurance too!
__________________

You have redefined the terms.

Lack of health insurance can be and often is the proximate cause of death. Lack of health insurance is an impediment to accessing medical care. Do you think otherwise?

That people die, with or without insurance, goes without saying.

 

No I have not.

Its not a matter of thinking otherwise. I'm stating a fact. People with insurance die too. Sometimes having insurance is worse than not. Insurance companies try to avoid paying anything. They do this by denying some service, not providing more preventative care, and otherwise attempting to either discount or avoid claims all together.

Not really... I'm not trying to state an absolute, which is "everyone dies". What I am doing is saying that people with insurance are no more guaranteed better or more care than those without. I went without it for a long time. Even ended up in the hospital minutes from pushing up daisies. I awoke to a rather large bill, but never once was refused service, or given inadequate care because I had no insurance.

In fact, it was a full two weeks before the billing dept called to work out a payment plan. In my experience it was much easier, and cheaper over all going without insurance. Since having insurance I've been sued 3 times by the hospital since right and left hand never know WTF they are doing.

Trying to say that people are more likely to die because they do not have insurance is a crock. They are more likely to die because they do not want to pay for care.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by willybfriendly
Quote:

People DO die from lack of insurannce.

They die with insurance too!
__________________

You have redefined the terms.


No I have not.

Yes, you redefined from to with. Hardly subtle, but definitely disinginuous.

Insurance companies might also cause deaths, as do incompetent doctors, automobile accidents or any number of other events, afflictions or circumstances.

None of that negates the fact that lack of insurance kills.

 

The lack of paying for care is what kills, not a lack of insurance. I'm not really sure I follow you. Are you saying that tax payers that pay for their health care and their families health care are killing people that do not have insurance? Or are you saying that those tax payers should be paying for it? Or both? I just don't get it.

 

Some will obviously think that no matter what I now understand. However, I will still don't feel that's a valid statement and is simply a scare tactic to force government care down our throats. I'm not aware of a police report, obituary, or autopsy showing "lack of insurance" as a killer, cause of death, or accomplice. It's seems like logic to me no matter how hard I try to think of it another way.

Having or not having insurance may change the decisions and procedures a doctor and patient chooses which could have both negative and positive outcomes. Did you guys read the about the big scam happening where doctors were preforming heart operations on elderly people that didn't need is to collect insurance money? Some of them died, does that mean having insurance killed them? I don't think so.

 

You missed this from willybfriendly???

 

For anyone still believing any of the lies about health care reform or who doesn't understand what health care reform is really about, please listen to what President Obama has to say here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGT3AnUGzMU

I think he dispels the lies and explains the purposes of health care reform very well here. It just seems like willful ignorance or politics to me to be against this reform. It's so obviously needed. Over 10,000 Americans have already died this year because of lack of health care coverage. Almost one million Americans go bankrupt every year because of medical expenses (75% of those have/had private health insurance but were either cut from their coverage, had their premiums raised so high they couldn't pay them anymore, or had their pay outs capped so they had to pay for everything else out of pocket.)

Health Care Reform Won't

1. Use federal money for abortions.
2. Give health insurance to illegal immigrants.
3. Create "death panels."
4. Take money from Medicare.
5. Be a "government takeover" of health care.

Health Care Reform Will

1. Stop insurance companies from discriminating against sick people (pre-existing conditions.)
2. Stop insurance companies from cutting coverage from people who get seriously sick or injured.
3. Stop insurance companies from capping payouts to those who are seriously sick or injured.
4. Stop insurance companies from raising premiums because people get seriously sick or injured.
5. Create competition for the health insurance companies by giving Americans additional choices.
6. Allow Americans to keep whatever health insurance they have now if they want to.
7. Lower overall health care costs (there are numerous ways this happens through increased competition and through less wasted resources.)

As you can see health care reform is mostly about consumer protections and lowering costs. One aspect of that is creating a medicare type government run health insurance OPTION that people can CHOOSE to take or not take. No one will be forced to take this option.

 

Zibblu, you're honestly trying to pass this off as the truth and facts? Rather than spend all my time addressing each, I'll grab ONE that's easy to be shown as untrue:

Oh REALLY? Please read below:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/13/news/economy/Obama_health_Care.reut/index.htm

So who is wrong here? CNN, Obama, or you? Do I even need to address the rest of your points?